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<blockquote data-quote="Snarf Zagyg" data-source="post: 8656322" data-attributes="member: 7023840">I think that this is a point of fundamental agreement that we likely have.At the most basic level, and from my POV, GNS (and the Forge) was born out of a rejection of the dominant games of the time (V:TM and AD&amp;D 2e and 3e). It led to a dramatic increase in indie games, and, more importantly, an emphasis on design in the &quot;N&quot; sphere.All of that is good! That's how it's supposed to work; you reject the dominant paradigm, and in so doing, make new stuff. We can see this with OSR, FKR, Storygames, and going back to debates about illusionism and the rise of storytelling in the 70s. I think that there are people that appreciate the games that arose from the Forge model, but also understand that for that reason, it's primarily gNs. It's really good for the N ... not so much for people that like other games, especially so-called &quot;trad&quot; games. For that reason, the rhetoric surrounding the Forge (which is activist) and the &quot;conversion stories&quot; (I used to be a dumb ol' D&amp;D player like you, until I saw the light!) is not just off-putting, but can be actively offensive at times ... especially when it is repeatedly called neutral. Again, that doesn't mean that the jargon isn't helpful for some people, or doesn't improve their games. But I think it is telling that most modern designers eschew those labels.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Snarf Zagyg, post: 8656322, member: 7023840"] I think that this is a point of fundamental agreement that we likely have. At the most basic level, and from my POV, GNS (and the Forge) was born out of a [U]rejection[/U] of the dominant games of the time (V:TM and AD&D 2e and 3e). It led to a dramatic increase in indie games, and, more importantly, an emphasis on design in the "N" sphere. All of that is good! That's how it's supposed to work; you reject the dominant paradigm, and in so doing, make new stuff. We can see this with OSR, FKR, Storygames, and going back to debates about illusionism and the rise of storytelling in the 70s. I think that there are people that appreciate the games that arose from the Forge model, but also understand that for that reason, it's primarily gNs. It's really good for the N ... not so much for people that like other games, especially so-called "trad" games. For that reason, the rhetoric surrounding the Forge (which is [I]activist[/I]) and the "conversion stories" (I used to be a dumb ol' D&D player like you, [I]until I saw the light!) [/I]is not just off-putting, but can be actively offensive at times ... especially when it is repeatedly called neutral. Again, that doesn't mean that the jargon isn't helpful for some people, or doesn't improve their games. But I think it is telling that most modern designers eschew those labels. [/QUOTE]

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