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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 8659234" data-attributes="member: 82106">Right, I think this is really where I'm coming from as well. Its quite possible that D&D has much the same social function and form that it did in 1981. Discussion of that, which seems to be pretty adjacent to the whole "taxonomies of players" thing that Torner seems to be hung up on, may well be of the form "gosh, this hasn't changed much." I just don't even see the sort of taxonomy-like stuff that is embodied in things like the WotC survey and discussions of 'Timmies' and 'Optimizers' and 'Actors', and 'Explorers' even relates much to what guys like Edwards are talking about. I mean, certainly player and game agendas connect with these classification schemes in some sense, but a set of analytical tools like GNS is aimed at understanding the actual form and process of play, whereas debates about whether people want to fight or explore (all inevitably had within the structural assumptions of Trad D&D generally) don't even relate to that much at all.Right on. I agree that Apocalypse World probably represents the fulcrum or pivot point where modern RPGs emerged in their present form. Games like Sorcerer and Everway and whatnot definitely presaged that, but AW is really the game which presents all the parts in a fully realized cohesive form which can be replicated and elaborated on as a pattern. This is really almost the first time an enduring pattern of game design has arisen which contrasts with the paradigm of D&D at all levels. I mean, there are definitely many variations of mechanical structure (skill systems instead of leveling systems, dice pools, etc. etc. etc.) but with AW you finally get a fundamentally reimagined RPG paradigm in a mature form that isn't just a sort of weird one-off experiment. The coining of the term PbtA itself signifies the final coming out of a revolution in RPGs. So sure, Edwards, Baker, et al. may be addressing the same old social and cultural questions and structure that the RPG world has always existed in (though I personally think the cultural milieu has changed a good bit in the last 40 years) but their approach to actual game design and play has a pretty significantly different character. I don't know if Peterson, Torner, White, etc. are actually out there playing these various games or not, but if they aren't acknowledging the significance of this evolution, then they're missing something that feels pretty significant to me!</blockquote>

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