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Message: <blockquote data-quote="innerdude" data-source="post: 8661321" data-attributes="member: 85870">So, to comment on this --- Even when I was a die-hard "trad" GM running Pathfinder and Savage Worlds, I personally never found the rhetoric of the Forge to be offputting. I think Ron Edwards had a clear idea that he wanted to get the principles of "narrativist" play solidified, and it was easiest in context to build that separation around what he perceived as the dividing lines between play agendas. If narrativist play was to be viewed as a separate but holistic kind of play outside other long-standing styles of process sim / purist for system play, the differences / lines had to be drawn in pretty dark ink.When I read the Forge for the first time, I was in the heart of my run with Savage Worlds, which is as "trad" as "trad" can be. And the jargon was thick, and layered, and dense, and not really helpful until I'd read some of the essays five or six times (not all at once; usually separated by months or years between readings). Which I agree is partially your point --- anyone who's not willing to engage with the Forge essays + concepts at a level of multiple careful readings is going to get very little out of the jargon, and more likely than not be off put by it, rather than drawn in.But I do take issue with the whole "I have seen the light!" comment. Would I be lying if I said I don't care if no one ever tries Ironsworn? Yes, because Ironsworn is an objectively great game, and I would hate to think anyone would miss out on the fun and enjoyment it can bring to the right kind of group. But really, it's a very low bar of caring. And too, I've hardly abandoned "trad" play. I'm currently GM-ing an FFG Star Wars game, which has some nods to narrative play with the dice mechanic, but at it's heart it's fairly trad. Even after I abandoned D&D entirely (post-Pathfinder 1e), my primary game was Savage Worlds --- which is as "trad" as "trad" can be. And just this year I've been intrigued by what I've seen from Against the Darkmaster on these boards--a firmly "trad" take on Rolemaster Lite / MERP.Just because I finally came to recognize that PbtA's take on "narrativist" play actually works doesn't mean I'm somehow never going to play and enjoy a "trad" system. There's a line between being accused of trying "convert the heathen trad D&D players" and simply wanting to clarify that despite my previous massive pile of resistance and skepticism, PbtA does actually work and works well. My own journey would look something along these lines:1.  2009 -- "Man, 4e D&D is the worst. What were they thinking? It's just a dumb version of WoW, and I don't want that."2. 2010 -- "Dissociated mechanics are for real, man! Anyone who doesn't see the light on how true this concept is just totally doesn't get it, and is actively harming the RPG hobby."3. 2011 -- "What is this weird 'GNS' thing people are talking about on EN World? I really don't see how this 'narrativist' style of play could even possibly work, and in fact I'm actively hostile to it."4. 2011-2017 -- "Man, [USER=42582]@pemerton[/USER], [USER=6696971]@Manbearcat[/USER] , [USER=99817]@chaochou[/USER], [USER=16586]@Campbell[/USER], and others are saying some weird, provocative things about this whole 'fiction-first,' 'narrativist' style of gaming. It sounds crazy. It can't possibly work though. Because the game world has to be internally consistent. It's the only way RPG play can possibly work. You can't just make stuff up as you go. There has to be fidelity to the game world. But maybe I can experiment with saying 'yes' more to the players, and not being quite so 'precious' about my prepped materials."5. 2017 -- "Hmmm. I've been running Savage Worlds for 6 years now. And though I still like it, I have to admit I'm actually curious, despite my skepticism, to see if there's anything at all to this PbtA / narrativist mumbo jumbo. I guess this Dungeon World thing is worth $20 to at least try it."6. 2018-2021 -- "Well, Dungeon World didn't quite work out. But man, despite how much I don't want to admit it, there might be something there. There's . . . something going on with that that I can't quite grasp, but I can see how maybe it's supposed to work. Is there something I'm missing? I wonder if I can get some more info on this from EN World without really admitting that I'm curious . . . ."7. January 2021 -- "Well, I wasn't really thinking I'd try a PbtA game again anytime soon . . . but man, this PDF of Ironsworn is cool. Like, I'm reading this, and my imagination is going a million miles an hour. It's so evocative, so tight in its presentation. Shawn Tompkin's explanation of the game loop is brilliant, and so well written. Honestly, I have to try this. Even if I hate the system, the assumed game world and GM principles are just too interesting to not at least give it a chance."8. April 2021 -- "Whelp . . . damn. I can't even believe I'm saying this, considering where I was ten years ago, but Ironsworn is flat out amazing. Beyond amazing. It's so cool, and it totally clicks, and wow, I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't want to try this. This has completely opened up a new kind of game for our group."In the end, I only minimally care if people try PbtA, specifically as embodied in Ironsworn. What's more important to me is to counter claims from people that PbtA doesn't work, and can't work, even if they've never tried it, and they won't ever try it, because they know beyond any doubt that it will ruin their RPG play experience if they do.I never understood at times why [USER=42582]@pemerton[/USER] and [USER=6696971]@Manbearcat[/USER] pushed back so hard on my long-running criticisms of Forge / PbtA. But, even if it sounds weird and maybe a little aggrandizing to say, I get it now. It's not about changing anyone's mind, it's about not wanting to allow a false narrative to propagate. Play whatever RPG you want. Just don't be intellectually dishonest about staking claims about things you know nothing about.But to your point --- I will also admit that the Forge's GNS jargon may not be generally helpful. In my own journey, what was more important than the jargon was my own mindset -- having an openness to new concepts. The jargon only mattered as an initial mental scaffolding to understand the concepts.</blockquote>

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