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Message: <blockquote data-quote="darjr" data-source="post: 9574486" data-attributes="member: 52905">Ben Riggs has been doing an series of interview shows, with the idea being talking about the Wish spell. Last time he talked to Erin M. Evans. Also previously Tweet and Heinsoo[MEDIA=youtube]4VUnNkOoasA[/MEDIA]Transcript with timestamps in the spoiler tag[spoiler]I'm Ben Riggs author of slang the dragon a secret history of Dungeons and Dragons and host of this show reading D and D0:12aloud and I wanted to say a brief word before launching into Today's Show here0:18uh we take a ttrpg text and talk about it with a ttrpg luminary today you'll be0:24hearing my conversation with Mike Merles we start out discussing wish in Dungeons0:29and dragon reading the spell aloud and and then the conversation expands into Mike's time at0:35Wizards including why he left DND d uh but this is primarily a conversational0:40sort of hangout show uh with a text kind of like Bible study for D and D Fanatics0:46if you came here because of my clickbait title I just wanted you to know what you're listening to and tell you that we0:52do get to Mike's time at wizards but we kind of fell into it so uh with that explanation please enjoy tonight's0:59episode [Applause] Ben rigs presents reading DND D1:10[Music] aloud episode 39 why Mike Merles left1:19the [Music]1:25indeed ladies gentlemen boys girls uh uh Samurai shugenja Ronin welcome once1:33again to reading Dungeons and Dragons aloud I am apparently controversial DND1:39historian Ben rigs I will uh add to that uh so-called celebrity and Apprentice1:45demagogue um just I'm just you know taking notes on on on who I am here but1:52I am I am nothing compared to the man that I'm sharing this call with uh with me is D and D fifth edition lead2:00designer Mike mer hi Mike hello I will point out that you describe yourself as2:06The Apprentice demagogue and then said I don't know how I compare to this guy which implies that I might be a higher2:11level of demagogue which like I don't know if I'd argue with that because I was thinking the other day when I worked2:17on fifth edition there was a moment I was on Twitter and I realized people were actually listening to what I was saying and if you've ever seen the movie2:24the uh Naked Gun the original one oh yes there's a scene where Leslie Nelson's2:29character Frank uh I can't remember people's names who like it important business meetings but I can remember the names of like2:34characters in movies 4 years ago uh he dis he asked go to go undercover as an Umpire and he starts like he calls like2:40strike on a pitch and realizes that everyone in the stadium is watching him and he gets really into it every that's2:46how I kind of felt like being like when I was working on D and D being on Twitter like everyone's watching so2:51let's have some fun with it right like when I realized people were listening to me I was filled with Dawning2:58horror like I I can't say that you know it's funny like once once I was like oh people are3:04listening to me my my posting just shot down like oh crap um but again I think3:11that might also be a historian's Instinct of like well I kind of want it to be right and clean and and what I you3:17know I don't really want to shoot from the hip here what I what I say I want it to be uh uh what I really think and3:24meaningful I don't want to have to go and walk things back um even when I post things that turn out to be controversial3:30or I know are going to be controversial like um I I never go back and think to myself that's not what I meant or uh I3:40said it wrong in some way shape or form which is always my my great fear uh that I'm going to misspeak but3:46yeah thank God I'm not a politician all right so you are here to discuss wish uh3:53because I've had depending on how you count skip Williams I've had someone from every3:59Edition of D and on to talk about it so far except for Fifth and 24 D and so here4:05you are to to help me complete the circle of talking about wish uh for4:12hopefully my audience is like yay another hour about wish otherwise you know this may be a4:18real misbegotten Venture but I think it's fine uh so let me Begin by reading it out loud unless you want to say4:23something before I read it out loud no go for it and I think it's actually really interesting to look at wish as a4:28lens to get the the sense of like what is this game trying to do I do have to ask was was wish present in fourth4:34edition D and D I can't remember it was not that is I think how a designer4:39approaches a spell like wish tells you a lot about how that Designer is going to approach any role playing game but especially D drag well I had uh Jonathan4:47tweet and Rob uh hang on Hano oh isn't it4:54Hano say so I say Hino I have no IDE so uh again having them on to talk about it4:59was absolutely fascinating because of course uh well and what I found is first through Third Wish kept getting more and5:07more nerfed I would say um and then fourth it didn't exist at all and I have no idea what it says here in fifth so5:14we're we're going to have to see yes let find out all right uh and I should ask5:19who do you know who wrote this specifically about the spell that's5:24a great question probably Rob schwald I you know this is like going back to the5:30ancient data banks like you know it's before we had the super fast drives we have now it's like an actual physical5:37arm it's such a pesty question I'm asking about one piece of text in the book that all these people worked on but5:42but but this is the thing Ben you gotta understand at one point in my life that was the most important question you could ask me because we had to get this5:49thing shipped so if you would ask me hey who's writing wish and I said I don't know it meant no one was writing it and we were in trouble because I was only5:55getting asked that question if we needed it for the book so but I'm pretty sure Rob Schwab6:01tanked the uh spell chapter I know there are some spells that got in there that I wrote uh but I'm pretty sure Rob took on6:08the Lion's uh share of that work cool and for for listeners that's uh Rob Schwab of sh of the Demon Lord and6:16Shadow the weird wizard which I I hear are both excellent so AEM wish ninth6:22level conjuration casting time one action range self components verbal6:27duration instantaneous uh wish is the mightiest spell a mortal6:33creature can cast by simply speaking aloud you can alter the very foundations6:39of reality in accord with your desires the basic use of this spell is to6:44duplicate any other spell of eighth level or lower you don't need to meet any requirements in that Spell including6:51costly components this the spell simply takes effect alternately you can create6:59one of the following effects of your choice you create one object of up to7:0625,000 gold pieces in value that isn't a magic item the object can be no more7:12than 300 ft in any Dimension and it appears in an unoccupied space you can7:18see on the ground you allow up to 20 creatures that you can see to regain all7:24hit points and you end all effects on them described in the greater restoration SP spell you grant up to 107:32creatures that you can see resistance to a damage type you choose you grant up to7:3810 creatures you can see immunity to a single spell or other magical effect for7:43eight hours for instance you could make yourself and all your companions immune7:50to El's life drain attack you undo a single recent event by forcing a reroll7:57of any roll made within the last round including your last turn reality8:02reshapes itself to accommodate the new result for example A Wish spell could8:08undo an opponent's successful save a fo's critical hit or a friend's failed save you can force the reroll to be made8:15with advantage or disadvantage and you can choose whether to use the reroll or8:21original roll and there's a couple paragraphs left but I want to pause there for a second because uh that last8:26bit there is is brought in from Third Edition because apparently Peter8:31adkinson had a game go really South with a uh wish that Miss messed with time8:37somehow so Peter was very insistent that wish not be able to mess with history8:44and uh skip Williams as I recall and Jonathan were both kind of like uh but8:50they were like well we gotta appease the boss so this is going in there so you know if you're going to go back in time it's only for one role and it's it's8:57interesting to me that that that piece is still there you know in fifth edition9:03cuz it's just such a specific like uh you know here here you are dming and9:09this one thing happens and you're like we got to change the rules so that can never happen to anyone ever again and9:14it's still in here you know all these all this time later all right I'm Gonna Keep Going list you want to say9:20something want to thr one one of the things I love about that is just the the butterfly effect of you know I imagine9:26it was probably a game from the 80s or something you know and just to like just to lean in if you could just send like a9:31message back to that group like what you have done will change like 25 years of D&D history like what did we9:42do dude you ruined it for everyone forever I shouldn't say that it's it's9:48fine it's a fine rule um okay you might be able to achieve something beyond the9:53scope of the above examples State your wish to the dungeon master as precisely9:58as possible the DM has great latitude in ruling what occurs in such an instance the greater10:04the wish the greater the likelihood that something goes wrong the spell might simply fail the effect you desire might10:12only be partly achieved or you might suffer some unforeseen consequence as a10:17result of how you worded the wish for example wishing that a villain were dead10:22might Propel you forward in time to a period when that villain is no longer alive effectively removing you from the10:29game similarly wishing for a legendary magic item or artifact might instantly transport you to the presence of the10:36item's current owner and I think this is getting again as we're reading this I'm like this might be word for word from10:41Third Edition um it's so as you're reading I'm reading along the 5.5 players handbook and it is this text is10:48exactly carried over oh wow I also found that kind of interesting all right one paragraph left10:54the stress of casting this spell to produce any effect other than duplicating another spell weakens you11:01after enduring that stress each time you cast a spell until you finish a long rest you take 1 d10 necrotic damage per11:09level of that spell this damage can't be reduced or prevented in any way in11:14addition your strength drops to three if it isn't three or lower already for 2D four days for each of those days that11:22you spend resting and doing nothing more than light activity your remaining recovery time decreases by two days11:29finally there is a 33% chance that you are unable to cast wish ever again if11:35you suffer this stress that last paragraph I'm not sure about that might be new but but the rest of it sounds11:41pretty close to what was in 3.5 and it was it's identical to what's in11:465.5 just about so 5.5 not to be the guy who's like making11:51fun of the you know the game that came after his version of the game but it it they threw in this extra few sentences that kind of like that had this very D11:59and specific like or about like what happens if you make a wish that affects the plcape the city because I yeah so it12:08kind of comes across as almost like hey make sure we own this so but I don't know maybe they thought it was important12:14to specifically say you can't mess with the lady of pain with wish so the um I just think it's kind of funny because I12:20think a lot of players will read this and they won't have they'll have no idea what that is so the U but yeah the I I12:26think that final paragraph Was new because I think we were thinking through this idea that we should have some sort12:32of cost associated with it specifically so that we could deal with like those12:38specific effects like know heal everyone up and so on we kind of knew that this would essentially let let the wizard do12:44anything and uh we could step on the character's toes so if you were like well I'll I'll I'll cast wish all the12:51time using these like guard railed you know options because those are balanced so I can just keep casting12:57it well then therefore just kind of making everyone else feel sad because you just got this kind of not an ey win13:02button because you know they're very specifically focused on certain things but that you know that it would just get13:09obnoxious after a while and we decided to include that because there's there's a funny thing that happened one of the13:14biggest lessons I learned his um game balance that looks like it's just there for the purpose of13:19game balance like the players will naturally push back at it but if you put game balance in there and say oh this is13:26this way because a wizard did it and they go oh okay okay it was it so now we 100% accept that that is normal and of13:32course we should be really careful casting wish because maybe we can't ever cast it again instead of you know the13:37reaction of like oh this is this is lame they're just doing this for balance purposes boring right like so now it's like oh yes it's so but I think there's13:43power there it's such a powerful spell it is it's a ninth level it's really kind of a 10th LEL spell right like it's13:50better than the other the other spells you can get at Ninth level so this is just a natural way to kind of give you13:55the effect of I can cast wish that's so cool but then say yeah but be careful with it don't like it also kind of14:01undermines things in terms of like a storytelling it's like oh every high high Lev wizard is just running around casting wish all the time so did want to14:09make it feel like it was a big moment in the campaign if a wizard took the spell and cast it and also for an NPC same14:15thing you just wouldn't design encounters with an evil wizard just casting wish all the time so huh well14:22it's like um when when I started this process uh14:28it was because uh I want to say wish popped into like a second or third level14:33Shadow Dark Adventure and again I audience you know14:39this story and audience you've you've heard me read wish from Shadow dark before but I'll do it again just for consistency here um you know uh a14:46charact like I want to say you put a a ruby into a statue's hand and you got to cast one wish spell and the character14:53decided to like basically blow up the dungeon they were in which it's not a bad use of wish uh but you know when15:00that happened I had not read wish and Shadow dark because why would I it's such a high level spell15:05um have you per chance read wish in Shadow dark I have not my shadow dark15:11games have only got up to like fifth level but I have my copy of Shadow dark right here but you have your copy open over I controller and it it it is of15:18course it is very short uh tier five wizard duration instant range self uh15:23this Mighty spell Alters reality make a single wish stating it as exactly as possible your wish occurs as interpreted15:31by the GM treat a failed spellcasting check for this spell as a critical failure and roll the mishap with15:37disadvantage done cool and that is it and so yeah I was just blown away I'm15:43like Kelsey is just not afraid here she's like wish is wish and that's what15:48it is yeah no and there's value there right I me that's kind of the challenge when you look at something like D and D where you do have this like big audience15:56and there is a natural anxiety and you know how do you handle it but I think16:01you know the I mean I I say I I much prefer Kelsey's approach like that's what it does why we trying to mess16:07around with pretending it's not gonna do anything else the uh though I do think there's value in putting supplement Off16:13cast etc etc but the um but it's funny you mentioned that it was a low-level Shadow Dark Adventure was that a16:18published Adventure I imagine because you men I want to say it was in uh I I foret I think it might no it wasn't in16:24the quick start Kelsey put together like 10 two or three three page dungeons or16:29something like that oh okay so one of the mini ones yeah yeah yeah it was one of those mini dungeons um an aquatic16:35themed one and it was in there so and it's funny so I mentioned I had like16:40some curveballs I can't remember if we got that in recording but I have two curve balls to throw at you now this or at least maybe interesting things so a16:47going way back into the Wayback machine letting the ancient hard dis like move its arm over and actually physically access the memory originally for the16:542014 DMG we were going to include an adventure and we're also going to include the a small like sample starting17:02town and I think it was going to be the town from Under ilar the old like you17:07know mid late 80s adventure and I can't remember the name of it I think it's17:13daggerdale because I think or something Dale because it wasn't in the DS it always confused me like wait so the town17:19is called like Riverdale it's in the dands no it's not the D it's over here so I think it's near Cormier or something anyways I always always threw17:24me off and uh James Wyatt was going to write it and he had the great idea of the final treasure in the dungeon17:31this little dungeon go through you know that outside of town would be a ring of three wishes with one wish left and I17:37love that I I don't think there's any better way to introduce someone the dragons I said well here's a wish what do you do it it's like you know now we17:44ended up getting it ended up getting cut because the starter set was coming out first and that was really seen as like17:49okay this is where we want you to start the quarter books really reference uh no rational person who wants to learn a17:55game is going to buy a 400 page 300 Page book and try to read it all I mean people do that but like you know most18:00people don't so don't worry about putting a a starter dungeon or something in there because they'll just go use the18:06starter set and it also meant it was clearer like what should I start with the starter set if the DMG had a starter thing it just I think be confusing to18:12people so the uh but yeah because I think that is something about role playing games that it really highlights18:18what makes these games different except I have like my my second little spin on things so I was18:25thinking about that right because you'd think hey wish right like like your ex so was you were running the game and the18:31player said I want to destroy everything in the d y I was running the game and like I don't I I hesitate to say we were18:38running a campaign it was a series of linked one shots they were like Serpent cultists and you know like he could have18:45been like I become the serpent God and i' be like okay fine this is you know not like this is not my dream campaign18:51that I've been like cooking up for 5 years we can blow it all up tonight and it's fine uh but he was responsible and18:57you know it was like 9:00 already anyway so it's like all right you blow up the dungeon great but that that is the answer to your question19:04sorry so I was messing around I thought okay so is wish something that only like a human could handle like okay I C wish19:11you need another person across the table so then I went I ask chat G19:17PT and it's kind of interesting not to go completely but I guess maybe this falls into be careful what you wish for19:22but it was really fascinating having it like not only did it totally understand the context like oh a Dungeons and Dragons game with the wish spell19:29yes I will have it gave me like four or five different ideas for the wish I think the19:36wish I said was oh my players wished for a million XP so what should I do in a way that's gonna be fun and creative19:41came with five different different things then it said hey be be careful and then it asked me a question it's19:47like what are your players like because that would help me give you a good answer and this is I'm like wow it's19:53really interesting how they're feeding more more dat this the uh but I just thought that was kind of funny because my entire thing was like oh surely like20:00only a human could adjudicate this like well yeah probably human only really still could but it is interesting to see20:06where AI is going and it it contextually someone spent a lot of money for this20:11giant thing to process enough Dungeons and Dragons like actual plays texts that20:18like oh yeah I totally got the idea of someone casting wish in a tabletop role playing game and could contextualize and answer that question which just kind of20:26B blew my mind do you have uh chat PT open when you're running game no uh I do20:32not the um so I am very not listen to an entire episode what AI uh I use it for20:38one very specific purpose I will open it up and I used to have a paid account when I worked at Wizards because we're20:43doing a lot of research R um and the um what I will do with it is say hey chat20:50gbt I let's say I'm working on a monster and I'll say hey I am working on a new monster and here are the adjectives I'm20:56I'm using to describe it what kind of monster do you think this is so basically doing a like I know about the21:03technology you're like hey when I put those words in it's going to go off and this basically giant cloud of Concepts21:09and then find what's close to it so then if it comes back with something that doesn't match at all what I'm trying to describe I know to go back and change it21:16but like during the game no because honestly um I actually had very far field here Ben if I start wandering too21:22far off like the task just smack me but the um when I was at Wizards I was21:27approached by someone who was it someone on the business side and they were like hey if we wanted to do like uh Lego21:36Style toys for D and and this was this was like a year I think a little bit before they they they figured out they21:41did the partnership with Lego Lego but they asked like why don't more people use Legos why don't more people use21:47Dwarven Forge you know in their games and a lot of was because well the core gameplay Loop doesn't have space for it21:55in the sense that hey weol initiative great we're about to get into a fight this is going to be fun but first let me build a 3D like you22:02know it can work but you got to really think about it and so for me that's where chat GG kind of sits because like22:08there is a funny thing where like this is kind of interesting it can generate all this text talking about wishes but like I'm if we're playing a game and I'm22:14like oh that's interesting give me a moment just looking at my screen reading like the uh yeah the so that for me is22:22it's not something that I really think of is as like a runtime research piece like it's more useful to me to get like22:28what would the what would Reddit say if I asked Reddit hey I described the monster like this now everyone post what you think I'm describing the uh that's22:35fundamentally what you're getting you talk to chat to chat gbt when I was running my one ring game22:41I found it really useful because have you read the rules for one ring you know I did ages ago but it's been a while I22:48just recently looked at the travel rules and I looked at the those the 5e version I don't think it's I don't think it22:53works 55 it works with five that they're selling a d gun so the travel rules are22:59exactly where I was going you know like incidents will happen along the way and in the in the core book they kind of23:05have a generic like here are the like seven sorts of incidents that might happen and you know they're trying to23:13give you enough inspiration to to run with it but also leave it open enough23:18that you're not having the same thing happen all the time and uh you know after a few months it's like I could23:24really use some fresh ideas here and and chat GPT was really handy for that um23:30essentially generating like Random Encounters as you're going through the Wilderness and I I also use it similar23:36with your monster idea um again I could be like hey give me uh tolken esque23:43synonyms for whatever you know so and and I don't need to read a whole thing it's just like okay I can sprinkle in23:50again the appropriate adjectives to kind of get me in that tolk in space but you know if I when I've been running Shadow23:56dark like I I don't use it at all CU it's it's like well I kind of know what's going on here I know the score it's not quite the reach for my brain uh24:03that tolken is but it was very good as a tolken uh emulator as I was running the24:08One Ring no you I am not to derail this entire thing to let's talk about AI now24:14but like I am surprised that like Dy Beyond doesn't have any sort of like24:19chat gbt feature because even just in ter like you describing Random Encounters like to me that would seem to be perfect like yeah feed it all of my24:25books and then I'm like hey the swamp make a random encounter for me based on like my own data right like I own the24:32forgot round Source book and like these two monster manuals and all those monsters are tagged anyway so why not just tell me here's something that's in24:38a swamp right like that yeah I wouldn't be surprised if they roll something out like that this year because it seems like it seems pretty especially with24:45their virtual tabletop uh Maps like that seems like it would be pretty simple to24:50just have a button that says make and counter right and it can just look at your characters like oh you have you know three fourth level characters24:57here's a balanced fight you know great thank you right so yeah and AI is obviously controversial um and25:07there's a lot of feelings swirling all around it I I guess I'm either apocalyptic or utopian depending on your25:13point of view uh I think it's going to change everything very quickly uh and if25:19we manage it right it's going to be amazing I don't know that we're managing it right but uh I am like I've had a lot25:26of people say it's expensive it consumes a lot of energy to reproduce25:31a mediocre human and I'm like that might be so but that's today and like we went25:38from uh the god image generation software I think called Dolly uh to you25:44know AI generated movies that are pretty good in like two or three years you know25:50this is going fast it's going fast and I think it reminds me a lot of the 90s where the vibe was oh um digital25:58retailers will replace physical retailers and when you look at like like take Amazon as an example they just took26:04the physical store and turned it into a digital catalog and like that obviously26:10like worked to some extent but I still think like most retail sales like 60 to 70% are still you know face to face um26:17and when you look at like what is Amazon today well Amazon was an online bookstore in 1999 today it is a provider26:23of web hosting you know and business like you know it's it's it's uh AWS26:29Amazon web services that like that's their big part of their business you know and streaming video and so I think26:35what my personal feeling of AI is we're using it right now to just replace humans which is a dumb use of the26:40technology because we already have people who can do this stuff we don't really gain anything by having AI do it26:46I guess you could argue speed but what I'm waiting for which I think we'll see is like what is the AI equivalent of26:52like uh uh door Dash or uh Uber right26:57where it's it's like oh on my phone I can just say I need to ride somewhere and I hit a button and a car shows up in three minutes and drives me that place27:05you know and you know things like that where it's like you know or GPS in your phone where it is like actually27:11transformational and like that thing literally just didn't exist or like the convenience is just so different than what you get from a taxi service right27:17it's just there's no comparison like this thing wouldn't exist without this technology it's not just you know a27:25digital catalog yeah and again I am not a computer science guy I am a science fiction guy27:34though so and again as a teacher it's difficult because um you know for a27:41while it's been like well we're preparing kids for a future we can't quite see and now it's like well I don't27:47quite know what high school is going to be like for you guys sorry I I hope yeah I hope there's dates still I hope you27:53still can go on dates uh and that somehow we don't ruin that for you uh27:58but yeah um okay but yeah we have indeed wandered far a field uh so let let me ask you28:05this then so James Wyatt is probably the most28:12significant DND creator that I have not spoken to and don't know that I'm going28:17to get to speak to so and for those of you who don't know he he is to this day28:22at Wizards of the Coast he has been there for a long time uh yeah gosh he28:28started in the Third Edition I want to say he was actually hired by so my understanding and uh is that he was28:34hired by TSR then TSR couldn't bring him on because the entire bankruptcy thing uh28:40but when Wizards bought you know finalized the purchase and then got everything settled out west he was like28:47one of the first people they reached out to to say hey now like you know come work at wizard so I think he always28:52worked at wizards but he was like technically hired by TSR that crazy28:59yeah so almost 30 years yeah and he worked on uh one of the fourth edition29:05core books I forget which uh he obviously worked on fifth edition and he's still there working on 2024 D and D29:13so this is a fasile question but what's what's Jim Wyatt like he's oh he's a he's a Methodist minister right he is29:20and you know I have not talked so he he he also he was one of the core three designers in fourth edition and uh he I29:29know after when we launched thei Edition like the success was pretty surprising we had to cut down the team but he ended29:36up over on Magic so he was on Magic from like 2015 to29:412020 then came back I think in time like I think I don't know if he was part of the Court team working on on five5 I I29:48just call five5 because I just don't the sentences the um so the uh because they29:54have not given us anything to call it so but the um but yeah you know he well I mean I think30:00example like gave he was like he had the idea of like let's put a wish in the first dungeon that you go through right30:06like I think my impression of James is probably mostly shaped by Eon uh he30:12played a sign he was I don't I can't literally say he was like the Jeff grub30:17to Keith Baker's uh Ed Greenwood like I don't know enough about the process but30:22I know that like James has a very thoughtful approach to World building and30:28he has a very holistic view of the game which was interesting with fourth edition because he He's listed as one of30:34the core three designers and he did a ton of work on it but I always TR think how to put30:40this I always got the sense that his interest was more from the World30:45building standpoint rather than necessarily like the game design of like the powers and everything like that like30:51obviously he worked on that but there was also a significant thing of like what like the the world of the mentor30:56veale how does that together the um but yeah I mean in terms I mean you stick31:02around for that long at a company because they clearly like you and you're doing good work the uh but yeah actually31:08he's a very thoughtful person he isn't I can't remember him ever like rashly31:13saying something you know I'm just trying to go through and think because it's okay we're going back to like you could hear the the disc drive spinning31:19and everything this is not my modern solid state drive uh but yeah I think as31:25a designer if you just say hey James Wy has written Adventure what would I expect from it I think I would expect a31:31an adventure with that looks has a story in the sense there's like there's something going on between people it's31:37not just a location and you're gonna go kick in some doors and I think that that31:43story would be something that is I mean clearly you know character driven31:48characters that you're dealing with but there is a real sense of heroism within it like you are there maybe not to kill31:54someone but maybe to redeem them you know help them res Sol something the uh32:01yeah you know it is interesting because I'm trying to think if there was an adventure that he worked on that would be like oh yeah that was like James's uh32:07oh you know what city of the Spider Queen uh any award-winning Adventure that was I think that was like one of his signature works the uh on back in32:14the the three five days now and now maybe I'll look at up and be like oh this is nothing like it's just a big32:20murder Fest like a he's really a power gamer but you know I game with him and he always seemed to be like you know32:25more on the stories of cool um so can can can I just ask you some32:31questions since we we've wandered for field yeah we're super far and I don't know what you're going to title this32:36episode like again I it's it's I always think of it as we start with a text and we go from there and you know it's we're32:42not chained by it uh but again like you at least unless I misunderstand you have32:48not done a ton of media in the past 18 months uh no though I'm ramping up now32:53I'm actually back on social media I'm on X and uh it's been really fun it's like32:58oh yeah this is like it feel like I don't know what happened like it was super toxic for a very long time just33:03speaking my my own experience I have a very different experience on social media compared other people because of my profile you know people who I am uh33:10but it's been really fun and it's been very fun to just bounce ideas you know I G part of it two is like you know I've33:16been tracking five five in its release you know and trying to see like what's kind of going on like gaming as a whole33:23is a super weird place right now where and if I had summarize it based on what33:28I've seen so far people made a lot of plans in 2020 by taking the World As We33:34Knew It In Like September 2020 and looking at those Trends and there's drawing a very long line that assume33:41those Trends will just keep going on forever and they were right for about 14 months and then things changed radically33:48but the nature of game Dead is now all these games coming out are games that were kind of created with like oh this is how people will want to consume33:55here's the games people want and what they'll want to see games about and so I think there's a very interesting place34:00where there is just a huge mismatch right now between what people are making and what people want to consume and I34:05don't know if that has really ever happened before in Nas Market entertainment the uh yeah so yeah so34:12fire away well since you brought up X um and your return to it uh I'll ask about34:18your departure from it and say uh for three years people were like Mike Merles34:24was fired from DND in some way shape or form so were you fired from DND D I was34:29not fired from d and d and so you know I don't want to go into too many details everything that happened back then because it's just like oh you know what34:35that was like four or five years ago but no the uh so it was actually kind of interesting and I wonder if part of my social media thing is a lot of the34:42people who like really latched on to that and all this weird conspiracy theory like I don't know like maybe34:49they're all on some other social network now or something like that or it's just like isn't as interesting if the guy isn't worrying on but no no I I left the34:55um you I don't want to get into like you know the and there's not really any great details but the uh no I moved over to to Magic the Gathering I had the35:01chance to work on Magic I'd been working on some digital tools for D and uh I I35:06had and I know there was this thing where someone publicly said I was no longer working on D and that's like no35:12that never happened I have no idea why that happened but I'm not even GNA touch that the um but the I was working on35:18digital tools and then the company was looking at like what do we want to do with digit what's our next step forward35:25uh I was in favor of a very DM Centric approach uh let's make tools for DMS we have D andd Beyond that's great for35:31players but I want tools that will make running D andd faster and easier for me35:37uh and you know and it was kind of the decision of like which direction we want to go the company didn't want to go in35:42that direction so it's like I'm not really interested in working on something that's like so far from what I want to work on uh and that's why I got35:48the job offered to G work on Magic so the um yeah the um so that was not like35:54no at no point to be clear if like a quarter of what people talked36:01about had happened I would not have kept my job like it was but you know that's36:06kind of part I don't really even know what people think like happen any but yeah no that that was never even close36:12to coming up being untable so so obviously you were not working on D and36:17D at the time but what was the atmosphere within the company during36:22during the whole ogl Fiasco like what was it like within the walls of wizards oh people took it very very seriously36:30you know and you know I think when people released I don't know if anyone at Wizards ever has publicly said36:36anything or talked about it I think it was genuinely surprising to people and36:42and I'm gonna be in the weird position of like oh this company laid me off but I'm gonna kind of defend them now like36:48one of the things I do feel bad with people who got CAU up in it you know who aren't Wizards was they probably thought36:53hey we're doing exactly what the community would want us to do we have some ideas for how we want change it I am sure like at this stage remember it's37:002020 um the business is blowing up there's a lot of potential for licensing37:05right like and it's going to be hard to negotiate a license with someone if they're like oh we don't actually need37:10to work with you we can get everything you have by just going and using this open G license and if you look back you37:16know the the things they were looking at were uh you know if you're making X dollars or more you have to give us37:22royalties etc etc etc that to me feels like those are terms were coming out of a place of we don't want like lucasfilm37:30showing up and doing a Star Wars D and D game and just you know selling bajillion copies because like they could all Li37:36this but just decided not to because the system's free now there's a lot of reasons why I think they they misread the situation but I think the one thing37:43I think people you know have to give a little maybe consideration is they were37:48sending out the license to people with this idea of getting feedback on now you could argue that no one took them seriously and thought no this is just37:54you sending this to me and you're going to ignore my feedback but like that to me doesn't kind of make38:00sense because if I was in I don't know I'm just going to say if I was in that position of like hey I think people going to hate this so38:05much and I'm gonna do it anyway why would I show it to people early because then the story is just38:12going to be like hey this thing is so bad we hated by the way they showed it to us and ignored us like that makes it even worse I mean I I will I will say38:18the sources I've had within Wizards seem sincere when they say yeah we send it out for feedback and then someone38:24stabbed Us in the face because again from from from within Wiz that is the point of view right like you just sent38:30this thing out for feedback and now it's all over the Internet and everyone is angry and one of the people that you38:35trusted to look at this and negotiate with you say stabbed you in the face and uh again I can understand that point of38:44view uh but I I will say though there is something he said for I think the one38:49thing they didn't quite account for because this would have been 2022 is when they're sending stuff out and had38:55they announced the new addition yet I think 55 had been announced yeah they they announced it I want to say around39:00August and then December they sent out OG we got 1.0a I think it's 1.0a um for39:09feedback and then by the within a week of the New Year within a week of the New Year Lin codega was uh writing articles39:16about it yeah and I think that's what their their miscalculation was you know there's a a lot of people like me who39:23worked on fourth edition you may have heard this be talked to them about hey why did fourth edition you know have so39:28much trouble and ultimately like almost wreck the business the um and it just39:34tried to changeed too much at once it was a new world it was a new game mechanic forgot Realms got radically39:40changed the novel line was like really paired down digital tools right it's just so much change it's like what what39:46am I supposed to how am I supposed to make this journey from where I was to where I am to where we're going and I think that was maybe their big39:52miscalculation was I I think it's it it is like almost like the same root cause maybe like as like oh we don't really39:59understand how people will look at this so we're going to show it to them but not knowing they'll think like no people40:04are going to be very on edge about this and very like no this is a direct threat you know you trying to be as nice as40:10possible because to put it in context maybe maybe Wizards didn't see you just40:16announced a new edition so people are immediately going back to fourth edition and the GSL and they're immediately40:22going back to to an a space of you are trying to do a new version of D and D40:28that can cut us out so this doesn't feel like hey can you give us feedback it felt more like this is the deal take it40:34or not can you for the audience that doesn't know what was the GSL so the GSL40:40was so we have the ogl for Third Edition and uh the company did not want to do the ogl for fourth edition and again40:46this is another example of just like of all the path this was the worst um ra and I think businesses do this all the40:53time and it driving banana um so they didn't want want to do the ogl performance for reasons right uh it's41:00competition blah blah blah blah blah so rather just say hey there's no gaming license which I think would have been a41:05much better approach people would have just said like okay like that's I'm upset but like that's it they had the41:11GSL and the GSL is basically like imagine if you took the ogl and said what are things we could put in this to41:17make it so that no one would ever use it because it's so obviously a bad deal and41:22then like double that now that's the GSL like it was so obviously like no why would anyone do this this feels like41:28you're actively stabbing Us in the face and so I think it had a similar thing of like oh they clearly didn't want any41:34competition for their products and so therefore they didn't actually want anyone to make stuff for it so they41:41offered such a horrible deal that no one would take them up on it and I think very few people did like you had to like41:47register your company with wizards they could like revoke it at any time you had to like send in all it was just super41:53fiddly and it would have been just much cleaner to just say no there's no ogl and it's kind of thing where like you41:59need to be in touch with the audience enough to know like Hey we're we're doing this because people will be really42:04upset we don't have the ogl but we don't want to do the ogl like as soon as you're in having that conversation you42:09need to step back go why are we getting rid of the ogl again or whatever the decision is like if we're gonna do all42:15jump through all these hoops to like make it look like we're not doing the thing we're doing like just do the thing right or just don't do the thing that's42:21the even better answer just don't right like hoy that people yeah uh yeah so42:30yeah I mean I guess that's long and short of it is like yeah I feel bad to people who got stuck in that situation because I just think they weren't quite42:36they didn't have the right context to understand the reaction and it's the worst outcome like you think you're42:41being reasonable so then when the other people people react you think maybe they're are they being unreasonable are the children wrong and this is a case42:48where I mean no the children were not wrong and to Wizard's credit like they42:54then made like they released the game under the um Whata call license now Creative Commons Creative Commons which42:59is like okay now they have no control over it and then five5 came out in like sort of change things like but I think43:07you could just make stuff for it using the current 5e thing I think people understand how to use it like it's it's43:13a super yeah so then it makes even the decision to like crack down even more like okay I don't know why like like I43:20said I think it's just purely from like this doesn't make any sense from a licensing standpoint so you know I think if you just look at it from that point43:26it makes total sense challenges finding the context the the story I've heard is43:33um that there was a French video game called H solasta crown of the magistar43:39or I might even be saying it wrong yeah that that was a real turning point for Chris Cox um43:49because again for those of you who don't know and I didn't know until I was told about it uh it's a French video game43:54that used fifth edition as its end um and it was it was D and like all the44:01uh press was this is the best DND video game ever made and it's not DN D um and44:08it I I've not played it but it seemed to do very well it made a bunch of money um44:14and somebody told me that there was a license involved at some point but I have not gotten the full story on that44:20yet yeah I think it was so at one point I was asked to play it the um I'm44:26looking it up on steam right now and so like it's alltime reviews has got 17,00044:31reviews total which is pretty good right but it's not like I mean let's compare that44:37like I mean now obviously I'm comparing a game of the year but you know 177,00044:42reviews compared to 637000 reviews for pg3 it's funny44:48because it's one of those things where again you think of context right like so44:53okay this this is like very convenient because this is this is what you get to hear my theory theory of like why ttrpgs44:59don't scale so the uh I have this Theory what do you mean by don't scale here45:05yeah it's a business thing so the uh man I hope this makes sense because we're using your air time if this ends up45:11being stupid no this is this is great this is this is the way the conversation goes so the so I have this Theory before45:18we start recording let me rewind a little bit I I I I told you that I think one of the big flaws of ttrpgs is that45:23everyone wants to pretend they're this super bespoke weirdo unique business that like is so different from anything45:29else that you like cannot possibly take learnings from other areas and bring it to Paar and that is just so completely45:37wrong right like in the example I gave when we were talking is like oh people look at RPGs like only the dungeon45:42master buys anything you can play D and D or vampire with only one person buying45:47anything and that's so weird and how do we solve that it's like that makes no sense when I play Settlers of Katan we45:54don't all show up with our settlers boxes like one person brings a copy of settlers and what settlers doesn't do46:01what RPGs try to do is say hey we'll sell stuff to the players to the other46:07players which like if you apply that to settlers or almost any other game you have this weird thing we're like we're46:14say sitting down to play sers and our host say Ben you're our host you pull out your set and then I from my backpack46:20pull out my oh I bought the armies expansion I can build armies now and attack you guys I mean you can't because46:27you didn't buy the expansion but I did like I can't imagine any s scenario where people like oh that's cool a we're46:33GNA let you do that no they'd be weird not buy it and then B think oh these set Katan people they're such great you know46:39business feel like isn't it so great they're making stuff where you could just buy to be better it's fundamentally what you're like saying like yeah I46:45bought a book with a bunch of new spells and classes and stuff like it's obviously those are gonna be more powerful I mean I've been in this46:51business for almost 30 years like that's what happens right but we think that that makes sense and like no makes sense46:57only in role playing games no one else would run their business that way and so but there is one thing that I think role47:03playing games share with very high-end professional software like specifically47:09like like like Unix distributions or like very like you like the the the software Machinery you sell to design47:16chips you know like I'm Gonna Make You Know design the next chip you know you it's gonna power the next generation of AI stuff where the distance between the47:25customer and the person making decisions about the product at an executive level47:30has to be as short as possible because your user is an expert like so Dungeons and Dragons is a47:37dungeon master they're going to use these tools or any role playing game to make content they are creating content47:44you really need to know what's valuable to them to make a product that they're going to use because they're going to develop their way of working and they47:50are not going to like change how they do things in order to accept your product into their like work Loop you know and47:57that's I think is the key to role playing games where other products other games don't have that super short walk48:04like you you must have executive you know decision-making as close to the customer as possible because the games48:12the the active creation is not quite so fundamental to everything uh Magic48:18Gathering I think is a good example like you make decks but you don't make cards right so you can afford to have a little48:24bit more space there uh because not so onet to one like I have to really know the customer they're going to make great48:30cards in the set no they're GNA make great decks much more structured something on Extreme Edge right like you48:36know the milk you buy at your local grocery store I don't need any connection to that guy running that48:41business I just need to know that they are deciding to keep you know the milk is clean and it's a good price right really48:48the only thing the only way that they in an executive can communicate with me meaningfully is price right now they48:54again there could be the bad communication of oh this is you know infested with bacteria okay no thank you48:59the um but ideally there is no communication there because I'm not worried about buying you know spoiled milk in my my my little store I'm just49:05looking like I just went and bought milk today and my choice was driven by cost my wife needed some milk because she's49:10making some uh making some cupcakes and so I just said you know what here's how much she needs here is the cheapest49:16version of that amount she needs um but that's not RP people don't go people49:21don't go don't go to your local game store and say hey what's the cheapest role playing game that's the one I want right49:28that's not how they work at all you know they want to see something that speaks to them literally like you know they're49:33looking at the product going oh this is yeah I want to build stuff with this you know and uh to me that that's the thing49:40that doesn't scale up and so to look this all the way back around like the ogl and stuff I think that's where you run into trouble with any role play game49:47DD or otherwise you got decisions made about a role playing game the the information there lives in the edge49:53right it lives in the audience it is not do not exist anywhere else and so then you end up with someone49:59deciding let's get rid of the ogl because you know we're looking at the licensing business and we're not relying50:04on maybe the Frontline person who's like the community manager you know to like come in and weigh in and say hey here's50:10the strategy to make this work the um and so yeah that's what I think the real thing it reveals is you know and and50:17that that's my experience is the the games that do well we talk about Shadow dark earlier that game was 100% a50:22byproduct of Kelsey Dion's ability to build the community and to interact50:28uh and to be part of we're talking uh a week or so after Charlie Hall wrote the50:33uh it's time for Indie role playing game Publishers to get loud article um where50:39he really pointed out that DND D doesn't have a lot coming out after the the core50:47stuff comes out like there's the starter set and I want to gosh were there Adventures announced I don't even recall50:52yeah I think they have a collection of dragon based adventures coming out out in a few months or something like that I50:59me we're talking in January of 2025 so I think it's supposed to be for the spring April May is somewhere in there51:06okay oh I should ask five more minutes that okay five more minutes is great yeah that's perfect so I can go make dinner um and uh you know like Charlie51:16was was saying hey uh this is your chance uh smaller tabletop role playing51:22game Publishers although people some people really took issue with uh him talking about them getting loud uh again51:29I don't know if you saw this online but it can be very hard to be a ttrpg51:34producer who is not making DND uh living in a d and world and and saying hey come51:40come try my game uh so to see someone from polygon say well the problem is you51:46guys aren't loud a lot of people took that the wrong way but the thing I took from it was just that the uh Gap in D51:54and D's publishing schedule does represent a genuine opportunity for51:59Indie Publishers uh cuz it seems like when when uh I shouldn't say it seems52:05like when TSR wasn't making stuff in 1997 I got reports uh from the time52:10saying that all these other games they're sales shot up uh so if D and D is not producing things it it does52:17represent uh an opportunity to expand market share for other game designers52:23which I thought was interesting and So speaking of like you know uh the the distance from the uh uh52:31Market to those making decisions um all right what else do I want to ask you so52:38you actually want the thing with the the Charlie's article that I think is weird is that this is the same number of52:46releases that D&D has traditionally been delivering throughout fifth edition like this isn't weird to have this window my52:52theory is when you look at back of the ogl the real impact of it is that it52:58made D and D uncool again D and D was cool right you have like Joe manganello53:03and people like that like openly talking about playing D and D D and D was something that was kind of interesting53:09and creative and fun and different and I think what the ogl did was take that53:17concept that Wizards and this idea of creativity that is inherent in the D53:22andd brand because of it's It's a role playing game and I think those two two things were sundered and I don't know if53:28you could ever put them back together because I think essentially you know it's this phrase the Mandate of Heaven right I think fundamentally what53:34happened was Wizards has lost the Mandate of Heaven and I don't see them even trying to get it back because what53:40I find fascinating about the fact that it was Charlie Hall who wrote that is this is the same Charlie Hall who wrote53:45glowing reviews of the 5.54 books but then at the same time he also then writing this is your chance because D53:52and D seems to be stumbling like how do you square that how do I go out and a review like here's the new two Star Wars53:57movies they're the best amazing the greatest Star Wars movies ever made by the way Star Wars has never been weaker54:03now is there a chance other science fiction properties like so to me there is to me it's that context thing again54:09like maybe this is the best players handbook ever written but the Vibes the audience the people playing these games54:16they don't seem excited about it like we're not seeing a ground solo support and excitement and all these where are54:22the third party products that's my f pass because that's you think oh there's a gap I mean remember before the ogl54:28even came up back when 3 launched white wolf had a monster book there were multiple Adventures at Gen Con like the54:35license wasn't even official yet people they're already Adventure showing up in stores we're not seeing that what's54:40ostensibly like this is the new standard going forward if anything we're seeing the opposite creators are running in the opposite direction I mean that's where54:46I'm going like U you to plug my patreon patreon.com mik merals onew the um you54:52know this time last year when I was looking at like my post Wizards options I thought why maybe I could start doing fifth edition compatible stuff and now54:59what I'm finding is I just don't want to like it just seems boring it's just like55:04you know it's it's like trying to like you know start a hair metal band in 1992 it's like no no no it's everyone's mopy55:13and we're wearing flannel and it's Seattle and rain and we're like you know it's Nirvana now man it's not like poison like and I that's the vibe I get55:21right now it's just like yeah there's still you know poison was still releasing albums still selling probably like hundreds of thousands or a million55:27copies but they didn't have any of the energy you know like it's moved on but what's55:32been interesting to me is that that role play game culture is still there and this is what I find fascinating about gaming in general especially ttrpgs I55:39don't think we've ever had a a period where ttrpgs were flourishing and had a lot of energy and excitement around them55:45and d and d wasn't on the upswing because I do think that's what's happening now when very strange Waters55:50where I think D and D is now uncool uh and it's but it's not like the audience is shrinking as opposed to like55:56you know a friend of mine would use the example the late 90s when TSR was really struggling you know they got bought up56:02and I think back then D andd wasn't very cool either the uh but it was taking down the entire industry with it like56:09yes shadon are the games who were getting market share that overall Pi was shrinking you trading card games were taking off video games are becoming56:15better than ever um but yeah I think this is a weird weird space we in now where in 2024 will be the first time in56:24the history of role play games a new addition D and D launched and I would56:29put good money down on the table that Brandon sanderson's role playing game56:35generated more Revenue than the new edition cors how much did his role playing game56:42make I'm gonna looked at it right now because I said that I'm like I God I hope I didn't just like 5 okay then I'm56:48clearly wrong the um well as long as we're whipping out numbers I will uh so uh for the I am56:57digitizing my entire historical archive and I am uh posting one document per57:04week on the show Discord for patreon subscribers so uh if if you want access57:11to uh historical documents like like the one I'm about to cite it's only three bucks a month and I don't think I'm ever57:17going to change it I'm just going to make those three bucks uh so amazing that you have to come and give them to57:22me but in 1994 uh TSR made a total57:29of uh $6 million on hardback books and57:34hardbound rules and only 1.5 million on modules so and again if you take that57:42you you you change it for today it doesn't seem like a ton of money to a57:47billion dollar Corporation and even if uh 2024 D and is doing really really57:53well like you know what 10 million $20 million you think like how much did57:58Brandon Sanderson bring in yeah so the the Cosby role playing game Kickstarter um brought in over $5058:05million um the if so the now this get where things get really interesting58:11because if you were to look at your 5.5 cor books this where I kind of fun I got to do this for a job because I learned58:17all this stuff very I'm amazing at parties people just can't stop inviting me over no it's the58:23I got a copy here of the dungeon master guide and I think the most telling thing about this in terms of the business is uh is the words printed in the58:31USA they printed this book in the United States I'm going to tell you as someone who works in role playing games that you only do that if you absolutely must58:37because your schedule has been completely shredded because you are paying way more money to ship in the states like don't even talk to me about58:43saving money on shipping it does not even close so you're printing in the states and you're charging 50 bucks so58:50I'm going to use that as my thing that even with those numbers like $15 million assuming you're selling either through58:56distribution or you're selling a digital copy now they have they did sell copies direct so you know actually go back59:02Andress my math very arbitrarily here to a little bit higher number per unit but that's kind of bad for them it means59:08they've sold well it means they have to sell fewer but so $15 million let's say they're getting an average of I'm G say59:14$30 per cor book sold they've sold theyve released the dungeon Masters Guide and the player59:20handbook divide that by 30 but have to Sol half a million books total59:27I you know and I think just looking at the numbers on um you know amazon.com oh so and you I don't think they're coming59:33close to that yeah I think they're about half that probably well and they uh they59:39said they they they said it's amazing that it's sold more than anything ever59:45again I'm I'm what did they say ah so this is the thing they did not say that59:50they said they it well they Ed the word fastest fastest stld oh but they also said specifically this is our largest59:57first print run which implies there have been D andd print runs that were larger1:00:03that just weren't first print runs they've also been using oh God I feel bad I don't mean to roast people I used1:00:09to here we are Mike you're doing it the the internet's gonna love it that's I'm a free agent now I just talk about this1:00:15no but if you look it is interesting to look at the way they talk about it I think there was a CNBC article and they1:00:21said something like uh the players's handbook has been like touched1:00:26by more players or has been delivered to more players or like the the the addition like they're very careful to1:00:32never just say it is the best selling thing ever and the I mean this working1:00:37in video games you see this a lot where people will say things like uh just today Electronic Arts had their um1:00:43earnings call and they said something like you know we have delivered 1.5 million copies of some game to fans it's1:00:49like oh that sounds impressive but you're think wait delivered it to fans so it's not sales they didn't say sell they said delivered so it could be1:00:55included like free downloads people getting it through a subscription service like you have Xbox live maybe it's available1:01:01there so you can't do a one for one and say that's sold and a lot of their comments have had that sort of phrasing1:01:07where it's like it's the fastest like well of course you had like you know four months of pre-orders you know they1:01:13keep referring to it beating 2014 it's like well who cares the market was a shadow of itself back in 2014 and1:01:20they're not just coming out saying it has sold more it's all these other words around it which then like people like me working the business well then I have to1:01:26go and you know go through their press releases and then triangulate things I'll give you another example they were1:01:32they at the end of the year and I do have to go into sex yeah and I'm like I said five minutes ago 10 minutes ago but1:01:38yeah 10es ago this interesting and my wife doesn't want to talk about this my daughter definitely talk about this it's1:01:43not work but they they pulled out a number at the end of last year and they said there were 3.6 million characters1:01:50made for D 5 which sounds pretty impressive right they launched the character builder in August so that's1:01:55what five months it's pretty good right so 3.6 million characters 720 720,0001:02:02characters Perth well I because the way I'm wired as my mom said to my wife1:02:08before we got married like he's a little odd need there just certain things you have to learn to deal with the um I1:02:15heard that number and immedately thought wait a second D beond back in in January 2020 publicly released how many1:02:22characters had been made on their service and so I spent you know other1:02:28people stay up late playing video games I stay up late like going through transcripts of YouTube videos and then1:02:33getting like lowkey on tilt at Adam Brad like he speaks so slowly like even on two times speed slow right it's my my1:02:41Northeastern New Englander thing kicking in um but yeah he said in January of1:02:462020 that there had been 30 million characters created on D Beyond which is1:02:51well that's a lot and then you trace back and say how long had D Beyond been running at that point 30 months so1:02:57you're looking at a million characters per month and that's assuming hey some of those months were the launch month where like clearly they didn't just immediately go to a million so you look1:03:03and they say hey they're they're bragging about this number it's 720,000 characters per month which is you know1:03:1028% behind where they were preco when the service was just launching so like1:03:16what was that number like for December of 2019 it was probably higher than a million because that was not you know that butter was not just spread out1:03:23evenly so there's things like that you're like going okay so what's actually going on and this is you this is my theory of the case is just1:03:30like d andd just isn't cool right now people aren't like yeah give me D and D but I think they are saying yeah I like1:03:36roleplay games and where that's going to go you know the $5 million for Brandon Sanderson like that's wild right like he1:03:44could have done a lot of things and he chose to do a role playing game uh you know Matt kill's role playing game1:03:49breaking five million you know things like that um so yeah I think we are in I1:03:55don't want to get too optimistic but I think and by saying it aloud I'm going to jinx it you know like as every good1:04:01Superstition superstitious person thinks um we might be entering a post D and D1:04:06era you know D andd has always been like the number one game by far but I think1:04:12you could probably go back and look at 2024 and say D and D overall revenue for ttrpgs D and D was less than1:04:19half and I think I could make that case now that I'm saying I'm like maybe I should go trying to figure that out well1:04:24from from your mouth to St Cub's ears um I I I will close simply by saying uh1:04:31before 2024 D and D came out um I really tried to yell about the1:04:37fact that except for fifth edition every version of D and D did worse than the ones before it because uh you know again1:04:45I have a lot of respect for the creatives involved uh on 2024 d and d and I thought that these CEOs are just1:04:53going to roast them if it doesn't do better than d and d 5e and I'm like it's1:04:58almost imp it almost can't do better than D and D 5e because it was it sucked1:05:04all the oxygen out of the room my books are still good why do I need to buy this like it's just uh I just don't think1:05:12unless something extraordinary happens that it's going to be able to match the success of 5e in part simply because 5e1:05:18was so successful so I tried to get that idea out there in the hopes that somebody could take it to the CEOs and1:05:24be like look it wasn't us uh but you know think what we're talking about goes right back to what I was1:05:29saying earlier because when the distance between the customer and the decision maker gets to whatever the business is1:05:34there's just a certain it's like a law of physics this is how far you can be aart and still have a viable business1:05:40RPGs man like why was fifth edition so successful because not only were we super close to the customer like you1:05:46know Nathan Stewart literally is like on Reddit reading threads and hey I people are complaining about this right and1:05:51then when critical role came and said hey Nathan we want to stream the game he like sure right if that had gone through a1:05:57committee like like a year later they would said yes but the people making those decisions like Nathan like lose1:06:03Shu like myself you know Chris Perkins and Jeremy Crawford going to conventions taking notes and implementing it you1:06:09know when they got back to the office and uh I think that is something I noticed that that I'm back on social1:06:15media like I don't see any of the D and staff on social media and that is a that's kind of sad because I think that1:06:20was one thing that really helped t&b um and yeah so all right well you have to1:06:26make you have to make food so I'm gonna say thank you so much um great to talk1:06:32to you and uh have a great dinner yeah take care right by thank you bye bye all right and if you're still listening to1:06:38this I am here to tell you about our amazing patreon uh if you are a patreon1:06:45subscriber uh you get access to a number of amazing perks uh firstly as I already1:06:51mentioned I am digitizing my entire historical document archive and posting1:06:57a document per week on our Discord uh be the first people to see amazing1:07:03historical documents from the past I think this is really cool hopefully those of you listening to this are also1:07:09fascinated to hear about things like the fact that uh uh in 1994 TSR sold a whole1:07:16a total of $126 worth of graphic novels in Canada1:07:22uh cuz that is how granular some of the information I'm posting up here is is going to be um in addition to that I1:07:29have special patreon only episodes uh you can hear me and uh Dr Scott Bruner1:07:35discuss the dungeon Masters Guide only by subscribing to our patreon uh I have1:07:40also started booking guests for other special episodes uh in February I will1:07:47be talking with Ken height designer of kns black agents in the Dracula dossier1:07:53and Sandy Peterson designer of first edition kak cthulu uh I'm thinking of it1:07:59as a series I'm going to call designers on designers uh Ken said that uh kak1:08:05cthulu is his favorite game I'm like how how about I have Ken talk to Sandy Peterson about kak cthulu for an hour1:08:11and I record it uh they're both brilliant designers what what's that conversation going to be like I don't know but it's going to be fantastic I1:08:18bet and I'm going to record it and put it up only for patreon subscribers and all of that can be had for a mere $3 a1:08:27month uh listeners our plan is to keep the $3 level the only level we want to1:08:34make it so good that you feel like you have to give us three bucks a month so uh go follow the link in the show notes1:08:42go to patreon sign up and get access to all of those amazing perks uh to those1:08:47of you who are already patreon subscribers thank you so much for your support uh we couldn't do this without you and this was a fantastic convers1:08:55ation with Mike Merles I hope you all enjoyed it and it's very cold and dark where I am and I hope it's uh bright1:09:02light and warm where you are be well all1:09:17[Music]1:09:25[/spoiler]</blockquote>

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