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<blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 5201774" data-attributes="member: 2067">Sure, this could have been part of it.And part of the complaints are now that 40-60 minutes is too long for a single basic combat (though 4-8 rounds might be solid). This gets back to the OP:When I look at why combats last this long in 4e, I do see some defense/hp issues, on occasion, but I see far more issues with combat set-up, moving minis, mathematics (all the fiddly bits), tactics, choice paralysis, and rules questions. Compounded with the occasional defense/hp issues, it makes grind. Long periods of doing nothing significant while other people make decisions. For certain groups (the well-prepared, the naturally tactical, the easily mathematic) it's not much of an issue, but for the &quot;average group,&quot; with no special capacity for any of those things, I think it is more of one. I think reducing the &quot;moving parts&quot; of D&amp;D combat would be an admirable goal for the game. Less sim in combat, more game, a higher level of abstraction, with easier, less complicated, and, yes, less tactical rules. At the same time, I think increasing the &quot;moving parts&quot; of D&amp;D that aren't involved in combat would be also an admirable goal, though that's slightly orthogonal.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="I'm A Banana, post: 5201774, member: 2067"] Sure, this could have been part of it. And part of the complaints are now that 40-60 minutes is [B]too long for a single basic combat[/B] (though 4-8 rounds might be solid). This gets back to the OP: When I look at why combats last this long in 4e, I do see some defense/hp issues, on occasion, but I see far more issues with combat set-up, moving minis, mathematics (all the fiddly bits), tactics, choice paralysis, and rules questions. Compounded with the occasional defense/hp issues, it makes grind. Long periods of doing nothing significant while other people make decisions. For certain groups (the well-prepared, the naturally tactical, the easily mathematic) it's not much of an issue, but for the "average group," with no special capacity for any of those things, I think it is more of one. I think reducing the "moving parts" of D&D combat would be an admirable goal for the game. Less sim in combat, more game, a higher level of abstraction, with easier, less complicated, and, yes, less tactical rules. At the same time, I think increasing the "moving parts" of D&D that aren't involved in combat would be also an admirable goal, though that's slightly orthogonal. [/QUOTE]

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