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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 5208534" data-attributes="member: 87792">No.&nbsp; At the end of 2e, using minis was relatively uncommon.&nbsp; D&amp;D comes out of a skirmish wargame.&nbsp;&nbsp;Your logic doesn't follow.&nbsp; It is entirely possible that people who spend more money on minis than on books.&nbsp;&nbsp;A step towards older editions here - from memory, distances in 1e were in inches.&nbsp;&nbsp;4e turns the battlemap from something to keep track into something to use.&nbsp;&nbsp;And battle mats look better with minis...&nbsp; (Also remember WoTC sells dungeon tiles).&nbsp;&nbsp;Going down a dungeon when you are expecting a dragon is a risky endeavour, arguably based on metagame factors. Risky endeavours based on metagame factors are par for the course for adventurers.&nbsp;&nbsp;I see nothing that could qualify as a refutation. Merely assertion.&nbsp;I can look at a battlemap and see where a dozen fighters are in relation to each other - and from this have a clear idea what they are trying to do. It is more or less impossible to keep that in your head at once (seven plus or minus two being the normal rule for the number of things someone can remember at one time). &nbsp;On the other hand, if two fighters are having a duel then the battlemap's not going to add much. (And if you're running a system with mooks, such as Feng Shui, who cares where they actually are? There's always one where you need him.)&nbsp;&nbsp;So. You're saying that a 6&quot; difference in the position of a shield matters as much as a 10' difference in where someone's physical body is.&nbsp;&nbsp;On the other hand, negotiating is a lot more arbitrary. And for all the people who ran mapless AD&amp;D, D&amp;D at its roots was a minatures skirmish game. Fireballs with 20' radius (or worse yet, based on volume) are weird without a grid - and as for Lightning Bolt...&nbsp;This isn't to say gridless is a bad thing. I wouldn't even think of running Spirit of the Century or Feng Shui with a grid. Just that AD&amp;D was designed with minis in mind - and the drop in their use seems to have been 2e, with 3e being a return to rule. (With 4e actually mechanically using the grid).&nbsp;&nbsp;Show me?&nbsp;&nbsp;Again, show me.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 5208534, member: 87792"] No. At the end of 2e, using minis was relatively uncommon. D&D comes out of a skirmish wargame. Your logic doesn't follow. It is entirely possible that people who spend more money on minis than on books. A step towards older editions here - from memory, distances in 1e were in [I]inches[/I]. 4e turns the battlemap from something to keep track into something to use. And battle mats look better with minis... (Also remember WoTC sells dungeon tiles). Going down a dungeon when you are expecting a dragon is a risky endeavour, arguably based on metagame factors. Risky endeavours based on metagame factors are par for the course for adventurers. I see [I]nothing[/I] that could qualify as a refutation. Merely assertion. I can look at a battlemap and see where a dozen fighters are in relation to each other - and from this have a clear idea what they are trying to do. It is more or less [I]impossible[/I] to keep that in your head at once (seven plus or minus two being the normal rule for the number of things someone can remember at one time). On the other hand, if two fighters are having a duel then the battlemap's not going to add much. (And if you're running a system with mooks, such as Feng Shui, who cares where they actually are? There's always one where you need him.) So. You're saying that a 6" difference in the position of a shield matters as much as a 10' difference in where someone's physical body is. On the other hand, negotiating is a [I]lot[/I] more arbitrary. And for all the people who ran mapless AD&D, D&D at its roots was a minatures skirmish game. Fireballs with 20' radius (or worse yet, based on volume) are weird without a grid - and as for Lightning Bolt... This isn't to say gridless is a bad thing. I wouldn't even [I]think[/I] of running Spirit of the Century or Feng Shui with a grid. Just that AD&D was designed with minis in mind - and the drop in their use seems to have been 2e, with 3e being a return to rule. (With 4e actually mechanically using the grid). Show me? Again, show me. [/QUOTE]

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