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<blockquote data-quote="D'karr" data-source="post: 5210910" data-attributes="member: 336">I tend to agree but how is that any different in ANY version of D&amp;D?&nbsp; And if we are going to talk about number of combatants, have you seen the number of creatures that can appear in a 1e combat encounter?&nbsp; If I recall correctly even one of the examples on the PHB uses an encounter with a party of 4-5 characters against 20 orcs + an NPC illusionist.&nbsp; How did DMs handle that without a grid?I agree if a heavily houseruled or devoid of fiddly bits game was used in 1e to handle gridless combat then why are we saying that the same can't be done in 4e save with great difficulty.&nbsp; If the DM simply kept a rough drawing of the combat behind the screen for 1e, why can't that be done in 4e?&nbsp; If he relied entirely on memory and description in 1e, why can't that be done in 4e?In 1e a thief had to be &quot;positioned&quot; in the right location to backstab.&nbsp; In a gridless game that ability was ENTIRELY in the hands of the DM.&nbsp; Much like the use of the 3e Ranger's Favored Enemy was entirely in the hands of the DM.&nbsp; If a DM didn't give that &quot;control&quot; in some ways to the player those abilities were useless.&nbsp; So if a group could trust their DM to handle those things in 1e and 3e then why in the world would they not do the same in 4e?Are we saying that the level of difficulty for a DM in handling a party of 5 against 20 orcs and an illusionist in 1e is going to be much elevated if he is handling a party of 5 against 5-8 orcs in 4e.&nbsp; Because I saw combats in 1e that had 20 orcs, but I've never seen 4e go much higher than about 8-10.&nbsp; With the inclusion of minions you can go to that level of &quot;slaughter&quot; without adding much complication.&nbsp; So if a 4e DM wanted to have 20 orcs against a party of 5 he can.I believe this is arguing about the &quot;perceived&quot; difficulty, not the actual at the table dynamic.Gridless combat is not something everyone could do in 1e either.&nbsp; As a matter of fact I believe both the PHB and the DMG usually recommend the use of miniatures.This is probably just a matter of taste.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="D'karr, post: 5210910, member: 336"] I tend to agree but how is that any different in ANY version of D&D? And if we are going to talk about number of combatants, have you seen the number of creatures that can appear in a 1e combat encounter? If I recall correctly even one of the examples on the PHB uses an encounter with a party of 4-5 characters against 20 orcs + an NPC illusionist. How did DMs handle that without a grid? I agree if a heavily houseruled or devoid of fiddly bits game was used in 1e to handle gridless combat then why are we saying that the same can't be done in 4e save with great difficulty. If the DM simply kept a rough drawing of the combat behind the screen for 1e, why can't that be done in 4e? If he relied entirely on memory and description in 1e, why can't that be done in 4e? In 1e a thief had to be "positioned" in the right location to backstab. In a gridless game that ability was ENTIRELY in the hands of the DM. Much like the use of the 3e Ranger's Favored Enemy was entirely in the hands of the DM. If a DM didn't give that "control" in some ways to the player those abilities were useless. So if a group could trust their DM to handle those things in 1e and 3e then why in the world would they not do the same in 4e? Are we saying that the level of difficulty for a DM in handling a party of 5 against 20 orcs and an illusionist in 1e is going to be much elevated if he is handling a party of 5 against 5-8 orcs in 4e. Because I saw combats in 1e that had 20 orcs, but I've never seen 4e go much higher than about 8-10. With the inclusion of minions you can go to that level of "slaughter" without adding much complication. So if a 4e DM wanted to have 20 orcs against a party of 5 he can. I believe this is arguing about the "perceived" difficulty, not the actual at the table dynamic. Gridless combat is not something everyone could do in 1e either. As a matter of fact I believe both the PHB and the DMG usually recommend the use of miniatures. This is probably just a matter of taste. [/QUOTE]

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