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<blockquote data-quote="Stormonu" data-source="post: 5214649" data-attributes="member: 52734">After having read through a good bit of the replies, I've organized my thoughts a bit and thought I'd present them:I think what bothers me about the 4E combat system &quot;kludges&quot; is not so much the use of a grid; I've been using gridded combat and minis since I got into D&amp;D.&nbsp; Its the changes like reducing monster hit points by half, increasing character damage output, not using monsters above the character's level +2, using egg timers to limit character's turns and those sort of tricks to get combats down to a &quot;reasonable length&quot; that irk me.&nbsp; Overall, the RAW combat of 4E simply takes too long to resolve, grid or no grid.&nbsp; If I had to pull the same stunts in my 3.X game or Vampire game to get a combat under 30 minutes, I'd be highly annoyed.The 4E combat system, overall, annoys me because it is built like a mini-game within the game.&nbsp; If the base combat rules ran more along the level of detail of a skill challenge (say, a 12 success skill challenge; at-wills, encounter and daily &quot;powers&quot; would be akin to different skills) with the option to add deeper detail to the game (perhaps in its own splatbook), I don't think it would bother me so much*.&nbsp; Running combats that are the length (and appearance) of other wargame tournament rounds (such as Mechwarrior: Dark Age or WH40K games I used to play in or a DDM game), simply does not appeal to me, or several of my gamers.* In fact, I've made several stabs at trying to convert 4E's combat system into a skill challenge.&nbsp; I just haven't had the energy to sit down and slog through it; there's other games that do what I want without having to rewrite so much of the system.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Stormonu, post: 5214649, member: 52734"] After having read through a good bit of the replies, I've organized my thoughts a bit and thought I'd present them: I think what bothers me about the 4E combat system "kludges" is not so much the [I]use[/I] of a grid; I've been using gridded combat and minis since I got into D&D. Its the changes like reducing monster hit points by half, increasing character damage output, not using monsters above the character's level +2, using egg timers to limit character's turns and those sort of tricks to get combats down to a "reasonable length" that irk me. Overall, the RAW combat of 4E simply takes too long to resolve, grid or no grid. If I had to pull the same stunts in my 3.X game or Vampire game to get a combat under 30 minutes, I'd be highly annoyed. The 4E combat system, overall, annoys me because it is built like a mini-game within the game. If the [I]base[/I] combat rules ran more along the level of detail of a skill challenge (say, a 12 success skill challenge; at-wills, encounter and daily "powers" would be akin to different skills) with the [I]option[/I] to add deeper detail to the game (perhaps in its own splatbook), I don't think it would bother me so much*. Running combats that are the length (and appearance) of other wargame tournament rounds (such as Mechwarrior: Dark Age or WH40K games I used to play in or a DDM game), simply does not appeal to me, or several of my gamers. * In fact, I've made several stabs at trying to convert 4E's combat system into a skill challenge. I just haven't had the energy to sit down and slog through it; there's other games that do what I want without having to rewrite so much of the system. [/QUOTE]

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