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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ariosto" data-source="post: 5158032" data-attributes="member: 80487">You set the DCs, the number of rolls, that X successes were needed before Y failures, and which skills were applicable, did you not? None of that was in the players' hands?You seem to close your eyes to this, so that you can see "GM discretion" weighing heavily only on the other fellow. But what of the players' involvement?No, they assure no such thing -- except as your group chooses to interpret them. All they actually do on their own is chalk up "successes" and "failures" without even any abstract mechanical coupling.You seem to close your eyes to this, so that you can see the other fellow's starting with the substance of negotiation attempts and following with "mechanical dynamics" as lacking dramatic and unforeseen twists and turns.How? After you answer that factually, consider: Why do insist that there cannot be "mechanical constraints" based on particulars of circumstances in the game, rather than upon "metagame priorities"?Dislike is one thing; such denial seems to be closing your eyes to facts.Sure there is. You just look in the rulebook, and it tells you, eh? No "GM discretion?"It seems once again that you have blinders on, because you don't want to see the clarity that comes of players being able to work with things we can actually visualize, what our characters are doing in the world.Whereas, in other games, "everything turns on a single dice roll"? And that's the only "point of input into the gameworld and the resolution of the conflict"?What was that you just drove into blindly? I think it was your own straw man.Hey, knock yourself out in the preference department. That's nobody's beeswax but your own. Thing is, you went (and keep on going) out of your way to lay a lot of loopy accusations at the first approach. They just don't hold up.Meaning what? That the GM has to be present, engaged with the matter at hand, and respond to it. Again and again, you spotlight the "modern" GM determining pretty much everything about a "scene" while the <s>dice-rollers</s> players are just along for the ride.If there were in fact nothing for the GM to decide, because it makes the same difference if the players say it, then you might have a leg on which to stand. As it is, you are actually arguing not for less GM discretion but for more arbitrary GM discretion.There goes that amazing Invisible GM again. How does he do it? Here, put on this magic blindfold...Yes. It is not a mere theoretical critique. I have had about as much of 4e play experience all around as I can stand.When it comes to that sort of thing, I just want to get it over with quickly and on to the next really significant decision. I don't want to spend a bloody hour at it! One thing I like about old D&D is that the dice-churning part of combat is usually over while in WotC-D&D I would still be waiting for my second turn. On with the adventure is what that means to me!</blockquote>

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