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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Kichwas" data-source="post: 9076111" data-attributes="member: 891">This response has an extremely high chance of completely derailing the topic as this issue is one of extreme disagreement in the PF2E community right now. I recommend that if we continue this tangent - it get forked into it's own topic.So PF2E is Vancian Casting.You have x slots per day.If you're a Prepared caster, like a Wizard, Witch, Druid, Cleric, and maybe some others - you prepare what you can cast that day. In your highest slot you might have only 2-3 spells of that rank per DAY. 1 down slot, maybe close to the same. By the chart it's 2 for highest, 3 for ranks under. But there are things that boost this. Some of these classes can swap to any spell in their spell list during daily prep, and some only from those in their spellbook or known by their familiar, or etc.If you're a spontaneous caster, you lean specific spells. You can't swap what spells you know except during retraining, and when you level where can can change 1 out for something else. What you get in exchange is 1 more spell per rank per DAY than a prepared caster.Kineticist...Just came out. In an official Paizo book.Gets a pile of extra feats more than normal. Each 'impulse' they know is gained from a feat, save for the first 2 that everyone gets: a Blast power and a manipulate power. The manipulate power just does random little effects with that element - including calling it into existence or making it go away. The blast... can be used in range or melee, 1 or 2 actions. 1 action version adds your Str bonus if in melee. 2 action version adds your Con bonus. If you use 2 action in melee - you're getting both Con and Str bonus.Kineticist has the attack roll modifier of a caster, which is weaker than a martial at key levels. BUT unlike casters they have a magic item that can boost this to be... about midway between a martial and a caster before level 10, and the same as a martial past that (I may have this slightly wrong).Kineticist's core ability is CON, and they have the hit points of a 'flanking martial' (8/level). But since CON is their main stat, they're always going to max it... So, a level 1 Hold Orc Kineticist will usually start with 24 HP. A hold Orc Barbarian will have 27. A Hold Orc Wizard will probably have 18. Whereas a Human Wizard will likely have 14.One of the Kineticist impulses gives them the AC of breastplate armor at level 1, but with ALSO the armor specialization trait. At level 5 this goes up in AC and gets Bulwark - a highly desired armor trait because it gives you damage reduction against AoEs...Another level one impulse gives them the ability to turn the 'blast' into any weapon as a free action, and swap around it's traits. In PF2E that trait flexibility is a massive boost. Especially given that they don't drop the weapon, ever, don't need ammo, but they do need to spend 1 action turning on their powers - which lasts forever unless they 'overflow' or choose to turn it off.Now the real problem:All of their 'impulses' have unlimited uses. In terms of raw power, they're somewhere between a caster's top and next down rank of spell.So in a party where a caster can cast up to rank 3 spells like fireball. The Kineticist has unlimited casts of essentially rank 2.5 "powers". One of which is more or less a version of fireball.So as your wizard burns that last top level slot to cast a fireball... the kineticist just stands in the back randomly tossing fireballs left and right at the air because... why not?The balancer? If the cast an impulse that has the overflow trait - which most AoE ones have - their 'elemental gate' shuts off. It takes one action to flip it back on. You get 2 actions per turn. The usual overflow ability costs 2 actions...Half the classes in the game have 'action tax' like this just to get a die roll bonus... The kineticist gets it to just stand there with a conal flamethrower coming out of them... forever...So the other balancer? They need to spend feats to get these things. BUT... They get more class feats than most classes, and this is most of what they will spend those class feats on. They can also spend them on adding more elements and some boosts... but in the end they will be able to get a full combat 'suite' by level 1, and then from there it's just getting bigger and bigger guns.They will have a lot LESS versatility than a prepared caster. In exchange for being able to use their powers 24/7. But they will only have marginally less if not even more powers than a spontaneous caster - depending on how you build one.Now... it's a great system. And as a long time MMO player I prefer 'unlimited spells per day' style casters. BUT when present in the same game as a Vancian caster... then there are some issues.A very large portion of the PF2E community does not agree with me on this. Seeing no problem with this being side by side with a Vancian caster..</blockquote>

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