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<blockquote data-quote="ruleslawyer" data-source="post: 1656795" data-attributes="member: 1757">1) A cleric with the Trickery domain gets Bluff, Disguise, and Hide as class skills, making the requirements for the DivTrickster less onerous than for the ArcTrickster, since wizards have none of the prereq &quot;roguish&quot; skills as class skills.2) I'm not looking at this class as a cleric with some nifty extras, but as a rogue with some nifty extras, on which count it's MUCH better than a straight rogue. Delayed spell progression is far less relevant, therefore. Even then, it's offset by Domain Versatility, which compensates in part by granting full access to the powerful domain spells.3) You don't lose uncanny dodge, just improved uncanny dodge, which is a loss whenever you take ANY PrC except a very rogue-specific one like assassin or shadowdancer. As for high-level rogue abilities: You get one of the best ones (Slippery Mind) anyway! Sneak attacking undead easily stacks up against a rogue special ability any day, and there's the other stuff.4) AT costs a rogue hit points (a precious commodity as is to the rogue) and +3d6 SA (I guess you can be more precise, but this is the real loss), and the &quot;couple of points of BAB&quot; you refer to are a pretty huge deal; that's effectively an additional loss of sneak attack damage. Also, keep in mind that the AT suffers penalties for wearing armor, whereas the DT doesn't; a DT can wear a mithril chain shirt or some such without even the hint of a penalty, whereas the AT does have to minimize ASF. Finally, the wizard doesn't confer much in the way of class abilities (Scribe Scroll, but that's it), whereas the cleric gives two domain abilities plus turning (which the DT can effectively use for divine feats). Lastly, the DT's special abilities are in some ways better than the AT's.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="ruleslawyer, post: 1656795, member: 1757"] 1) A cleric with the Trickery domain gets Bluff, Disguise, and Hide as class skills, making the requirements for the DivTrickster less onerous than for the ArcTrickster, since wizards have none of the prereq "roguish" skills as class skills. 2) I'm not looking at this class as a cleric with some nifty extras, but as a [i]rogue[/i] with some nifty extras, on which count it's MUCH better than a straight rogue. Delayed spell progression is far less relevant, therefore. Even then, it's offset by Domain Versatility, which compensates in part by granting full access to the powerful domain spells. 3) You don't lose uncanny dodge, just improved uncanny dodge, which is a loss whenever you take ANY PrC except a very rogue-specific one like assassin or shadowdancer. As for high-level rogue abilities: You get one of the best ones (Slippery Mind) anyway! Sneak attacking undead easily stacks up against a rogue special ability any day, and there's the other stuff. 4) AT costs a rogue [i]hit points[/i] (a precious commodity as is to the rogue) and +3d6 SA (I guess you can be more precise, but this is the real loss), and the "couple of points of BAB" you refer to are a pretty huge deal; that's effectively an additional loss of sneak attack damage. Also, keep in mind that the AT suffers penalties for wearing armor, whereas the DT doesn't; a DT can wear a mithril chain shirt or some such without even the hint of a penalty, whereas the AT does have to minimize ASF. Finally, the wizard doesn't confer much in the way of class abilities (Scribe Scroll, but that's it), whereas the cleric gives two domain abilities plus turning (which the DT can effectively use for divine feats). Lastly, the DT's special abilities are in some ways better than the AT's. [/QUOTE]

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