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<blockquote data-quote="Desdichado" data-source="post: 3899124" data-attributes="member: 2205">Treebeard says merely that Sauron the orcs were a mockery of the elves, not that they were ruined elves.&nbsp; The Silmarillion does hypothesize that, but the Silmarilion is not what Tolkien would have published himself.&nbsp; Indeed, it's not even clear how much Christopher Tolkien and Guy Gavriel Kay write as opposed to JRR Tolkien.In any case, Christopher later had a change of heart, regretted how the Silmarillion was done, and published new stuff instead which was more complete and shows all the ideas his father had rather than the ones that he and Kay picked out.&nbsp; In the Morgoth's Ring essay &quot;Myths Transformed&quot; he proposed many different origin stories in a kind of stream of thought &quot;arguing with himself&quot; type narrative, where he also described problems with each.&nbsp; There is no definitive answer given.If anything, most orcs as corrupted men seems to have been the one he was most likely to have settled on if he'd lived longer and worked on the problem longer, although that would have meant some shuffling around of timing and dates of when things happened in order to work.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Desdichado, post: 3899124, member: 2205"] Treebeard says merely that Sauron the orcs were a mockery of the elves, not that they were ruined elves. The Silmarillion does [i]hypothesize[/i] that, but the Silmarilion is not what Tolkien would have published himself. Indeed, it's not even clear how much Christopher Tolkien and Guy Gavriel Kay write as opposed to JRR Tolkien. In any case, Christopher later had a change of heart, regretted how the Silmarillion was done, and published new stuff instead which was more complete and shows all the ideas his father had rather than the ones that he and Kay picked out. In the [i]Morgoth's Ring[/i] essay "Myths Transformed" he proposed many different origin stories in a kind of stream of thought "arguing with himself" type narrative, where he also described problems with each. There is no definitive answer given. If anything, most orcs as corrupted men seems to have been the one he was most likely to have settled on if he'd lived longer and worked on the problem longer, although that would have meant some shuffling around of timing and dates of when things happened in order to work. [/QUOTE]

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