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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Tovec" data-source="post: 5987132" data-attributes="member: 95493">IMO, the Monk isn't (and shouldn't be) a Fighter kit. It isn't and shouldn't just replace armor with wisdom to AC. Let me lay out a reason why I am so opposed.I see three options that happens with monks being fighters. First, we could get a monk that is almost identical to a fighter, same BAB (or w/e BAB will end up in 5e) and basic combat abilities. They'll both be able to disable opponents via trip and disarm and they'll both have about comparable AC. They'll have all these things because you can't have one fighter be that much different from another fighter if they are going to be even a little bit balanced with one another.Second could be that the fighter keeps armor and weapons and becomes a vastly superior combatant with the monk being inferior for only using his fists whereas the fighter can use any weapon he wants, all with more damage and freely available upgrades. I'm going to call this the 3e combat disparity. This gap may be smaller in 5e depending on how upgrades and flatter math works but it seems that if the monk has to spend his time specializing he'll end up weaker than the guy who just took a single discipline.Third is that the monk is vastly superior to the fighter, with better AC due to wis and dex to AC and no penalties from armor. They'll also get other special tricks like the ones that come from the 3e levels to make them cool or interesting. But of course there is a base fighter so they'll be equally competent in attacking too, and put all together they'll end up better than the stock-fighter.None of these are very attractive. They ALL have the problem of making the monk too similar to the fighter or lacking the distinction of what the monk is from the fighter.As I said earlier up-thread, tell me what I'd have to lose while I'm spending time becoming a monk. I don't want to have to be a fighter who builds towards a monk. I don't want to have to be a monk who builds towards a fighter either. They are separate and unique and should remain that way.I'm not usually for having extras like this but I wholeheartedly agreed. We're not talking about a school of spells that you would have to ban, we are talking about one class that you feel doesn't fit with your interpretation of fantasy europe. That is a simple fix.I wholeheartedly agree. On top of not wanting to lose my monk I want to see them get extra abilities that define them. They are poorly defined if going by a purely combat related aspect as it is. I do want to see something like debuffing, scouting and so on. These are all things that monks can and should be able to do that would be poorly represented with a monk as fighter model.Monks are not defined by their combat prowess in the same way that rogues aren't fighters. Yes they both can and do fight in melee but that isn't their only thing. Fighters excel when they are able to hone and perfect their skills (combat feats/training) to becoming a better fighter. Monks on the other hand lie closer to rogues in that they get special skills through training themselves at different tasks. The REASON I chose to play a monk all those years ago and why it has become my favourite class is in no small part due to the self-healing, DD, immunities, resistances and what not. Also I enjoyed the high skill ranks. None of these aspects are well suited when you play a straight fighter.I can get as close as agreeing that a COMBINED paladin/monk class could work. You aren't going to get me to agree to monks are fighters because both fight anymore than you are going to get me to agree rogues are fighters because both fight, or even that wizards are rogues because both stealth. They are worlds different. If you want the fighter to be able to specialize in fighting unarmed that is great I have no objection to that. I don't see why that means the monk is suddenly invalidated. That is saying that a druid is invalidated by a cleric taking nature domains. There is so much more and what we should do is figure out what else we can do to make this class unique and richer instead of figuring out what we can do to deprive this class from the game.</blockquote>

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