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<blockquote data-quote="mlund" data-source="post: 5987862" data-attributes="member: 50304">As have every sub-class of Fighter in 4th Edition - the Weaponmaster, the Knight, and the Slayer - go figure.The Ranger is the lone exception. Every other sub-class until Unearthed Arcana introduced the Barbarian had identical Hit Dice. The shared THAC0 and Saves and most weapon Proficiencies. That's the guts of the martial classes right there.Furthermore the Illusionist used the Magic-User spell list and intelligence as the caster stat. The Druid used the Cleric spell list and Wisdom.XP Progression was AD&amp;D's balance mechanism. If you took a class or s sub-class with certain power variations you leveled faster or slower. The classes and sub-classes themselves did not have any real sense of parity level-to-level.For flavor some times, sure. The Druid and Cleric each had different hang-ups (one couldn't used edged weapons, one eschewed metals). The Paladin's code of conduct and alignment kept him out of the use of oil in personal combat and poison.In 4E the Fighter (Slayer) and the Fighter (Knight) have different proficiency with armor too. In 2nd Edition kits slipped in to modify classes as well.If you want class to mean the exact same thing in 5E as it meant in OD&amp;D or class/sub-class meant in AD&amp;D or class meant in 3.X/Pathfinder the Caves of Chaos play-test already shows you're going to be disappointed.- Marty Lund</blockquote>

[QUOTE="mlund, post: 5987862, member: 50304"] As have every sub-class of Fighter in 4th Edition - the Weaponmaster, the Knight, and the Slayer - go figure. The Ranger is the lone exception. Every other sub-class until Unearthed Arcana introduced the Barbarian had identical Hit Dice. The shared THAC0 and Saves and most weapon Proficiencies. That's the guts of the martial classes right there. Furthermore the Illusionist used the Magic-User spell list and intelligence as the caster stat. The Druid used the Cleric spell list and Wisdom. XP Progression was AD&D's balance mechanism. If you took a class or s sub-class with certain power variations you leveled faster or slower. The classes and sub-classes themselves did not have any real sense of parity level-to-level. For flavor some times, sure. The Druid and Cleric each had different hang-ups (one couldn't used edged weapons, one eschewed metals). The Paladin's code of conduct and alignment kept him out of the use of oil in personal combat and poison. In 4E the Fighter (Slayer) and the Fighter (Knight) have different proficiency with armor too. In 2nd Edition kits slipped in to modify classes as well. If you want class to mean the exact same thing in 5E as it meant in OD&D or class/sub-class meant in AD&D or class meant in 3.X/Pathfinder the Caves of Chaos play-test already shows you're going to be disappointed. - Marty Lund [/QUOTE]

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