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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mad Hamish" data-source="post: 5742341" data-attributes="member: 25321">From <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Swift-Actions" target="_blank">Combat - Pathfinder_OGC</a>"A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort than a free action. You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. You can, however, perform only one single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take."So no you can't do 2 swift actions in a round.It's going to depend a lot on the campaign as to whether that's a reasonable assumption or not. Holy does seem to be a very popular enchant option with players (my 11th level fighter has a +2 hold adamantite falchion for example but he's also been up against demons in the campaign)It does leave you using a d6 damage at best weapon instead of the unarmed attack damage and swapping back and forth between options means that resources are split (cash and feats, for example weapon focus only works on either the weapon or the unarmed attack)At 10th level you'd be going from 2D6 on unarmed attack to d6 + 2d6 holy damage against evil creatures and going through some damage resistance so he's spending 18000 gp worth of resources for that trade off and that's out of a total of 62000 gp as standard for a 10th level character.Actually checking the gear you've listed I get belt of physical perfection +2    16000headband of wisdom +4    16000monk's robe    13000amulet of natural armour +3    18000ring of protection +2    8000bracers of armour +4    16000+1 holy weapon    18000    total    105000which puts you almost 40000 gp over the expected wealth for a 10th level character and 23000 gp over expected wealth for a 11th level characterand if you spend any time fighting non-evil creatures holy does nothing (and it's certainly plausable that you'll be up against something that's needs neither good or lawful to get through DR)Yeah, I'd realised it did for attack bonus but hadn't thought about whether it does for power attack. Reading the wording I think you're right so thanks for pointing that out.That's with full crane turtling active is it?Have you taken that into account on the monk's chance of hitting?Ah, found Exploit Weakness Martial Artist power which does look pretty damned handy for a 1 on 1 fight (alternatively you could use it for the attack bonus and to get through DR and lose the holy weapon spending its value to boost defences or open up other options Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone).Sorry I'm not quite following your maths there. I could be out of it after a week at work but on my calculations if you've got 2 attacks with a 40% chance of hitting doing 3d6 +12 on a hit then that's an average of 9 dpr for each attack so 18 total if the other 2 are iterative attacks so at -5 to hit that makes them 15%  chances to hit so that gives them 3.375 dpr each so 7.75 total total dpr is 25.75I could be wrong or I could be missing something but I don't see where you're getting the 40 dpr from.that puts it out to 6 rounds for the monk to take the bebilith down (which I think is quicker than the bebilith will take the monk down) of course if the monk gets hit by a bite and fails a couple of fort saves against the Rot things could get very ugly for the monk as con damage is never nice...The problem with that is that turtling makes you ignorable and the opposition can go hunting the other party members. Now in a straight 1 on 1 battle with a bebilith a monk with Spring Attack might do as well as anybody but in a group situation it just gives it time to chase the wizardWell it hits 85% of the time. Against that the Paladin will probably have a fair amount more hit points, can heal himself significantly with Lay on Hands and has a fair chance of doing more damage than the monkaverage 1.7 hits per roundbased on some bucket maths the iron golem hitting the snake monk averages about a 25% chance with the sense motive on the first attack and 95% chance on the second average 1.2 hits per roundI think the Crane Monk work out the same fighting defensive and having made the Exploit Weakness roll. If he fails it he will get him about 1.6 a round. I think it needs an 8 or better on the role so I think the average is about 1.4 hits per round.Hey, I took your suggested build in terms of gear and you were the one who said that it would beat the Bebilith.Again I didn't suggest the opponent, nor the gear.What the melee based fighter can do depends a lot on what the enemy is and how prepared he is. A readied action might be enough for a lot of opponents, if not a 10th level fighter should have a backup missile weapon of some sort and boots of flying aren't out of the question.sure, but if you're looking at that a 2 weapon ranger, fighter or rogue (or 50% rogue/50% ranger) is right up there for multiple attacks(the rogue or ranger rogue getting sneak attack with flanking...)my 11th level fighter with less equipment than you've given your monk by price has attacks of +20/+15/+10 doing 2d4 +24 +2d6 holy damage while power attacking and has an AC of 31At level 10 he'd have been +19/+14 so at level 10 he hits on a 3+ for the first attack and 8+ on the second giving an average of 55.8 dpr without considering that he's got a 15+ threat range...With another 23000 gp for equipment he'd likely go for gloves of dueling giving him another +2 to hit and damage with the falchion and amulet of natural armour up to +2 giving him 32 AC (his options would change if I was optimising him for the bebilith) Paladins are very powerful when they can get smite in against an evil creature. They're less powerful against a group of evenly powered creatures and will hate facing a powerful neutral enemy (Slaad for example, or any of the new CN outsiders)Rangers are right up there against their favoured enemies but nowhere near as good against non-favoured enemies.Whether that's practical depends a lot on the setup. It's far less practical in a typical dungeon encounter than it is in a wilderness encounter and in an encounter with a choke point the heavy armoured characters might take it and going past them exposes you to being pummelled from all sides.As the barbarian it means you're trading off number of attacks for making it  more awkward for people to get to you. As you level up that tradeoff is less and less favourable. And it leaves the opponent free to move as wanted without risking attacks of opportunity.The monk teleporting into the soft targets can be very effective but it can also put you well out of range of help and an archer can probably threaten as much of the field without being anything like as exposed and pretty much always getting full attacks.One of my biggest criticisms of d20 combat is the huge benefit of standing toe to toe and swapping full attacks versus being mobile. As a general rule once you get multiple attacks you're much better off standing toe to toe (there are exceptions and class design can make a difference, iirc the Harrier from Iron Heroes did a fair job, and I think the Scout made a reasonable attempt from 3.5, there might be some charging based classs that do enough)With the improvements for archers in Pathfinder I suspect that a Fighter, Ranger or (possibly) Zen Archer Monk or Inquisator built for Archery are  probably more generally useful than a melee based skirmisher build.</blockquote>

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