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Message: <blockquote data-quote="EUBanana" data-source="post: 5742391" data-attributes="member: 6676815">Well thats a bit of an arse.I would say its still good though.We tend to be fighting evil stuff a lot, so holy is kinda akin to bane, except evil alignment is far far more common then the various bane subtypes.In any case its a distraction - theres a character with a lot of attacks there but the attacks only do ~15 damage, if you have DR 10, then thats biasing the combat enormously.A cavalier able to charge would be doing the precise opposite with one huge attack, but that doesnt mean the cavalier > monk.Yeah, it's only -1 to hit.I think all monks are very biased towards 1 on 1.  I think it is in the nature of the class.  However I think they have the required tools to engineer 1 on 1 encounters better than the other melee types - except for ranger maybe.Yes, you could use it to bypass the bebiliths DR but IMHO if you did that the bebilith would probably give the monk a good beat down.  The ability to ignore DR as needed is very useful though.  Yeah I think I messed up there, its lower than that.  But its still pretty good I think all things considered.The bebilith is still not going to be pleasant for the monk.  Against a humanoid the monk will have a bunch more attacks due to vicious stomp and crane wing, and absorb one free attack a round.  A bebilith may be CR 10 and so an appropriate challenge, but it's pretty much one of the worst CR10 things a monk would want to fight.Lady luck applies to everybody.  Monks do have pretty good saves, FWIW.Perhaps, but turtling still grants AoOs and you still get in the way.  And in a real game the monk is not on his own so limiting damage and getting in the way might be all that you need to do.  I dunno.  My level 10 paladin has 2 attacks and does d10 + 13 damage usually after divine favor is cast.  Strength 14, +2 longsword, +6 for power attack, and +3 for divine favor, which is cast in pretty much 100% of fights.  There could be a bit more with more buff time than a round, but generally its only a round or two.  But it's not a lot of damage when smite is out of the equation.  Admittedly this is not a particularly offensively built paladin.  But I think the monk could fight alongside a char like that and be effective in his own way, in the same way as everybody else.Flanking only happens with buddies, or with feints and single attacks.  A monk with buddies is a whole different ballgame again.   And monks get all the multi attack stuff for free.  They'll have a bunch of other stuff as well, like a style or whatever else tickles their fancy - not so for fighters or rogues, who will be paying precious feats for that stuff, and may be tempted by other things instead.  The multiattacks are simply a given.An interesting thing to bring up, because against the crane monk, it seems to me like the fighter is going to have one hell of a fight.   The fighter is going to be looking for 15/20/20 to hit or thereabouts if exploit weakness works - and it usually will - and on top of that, the monk is cancelling the first hit and gaining an AoO when it happens.  You do way more damage but you have to hit the monk twice to actually hurt him.  Without knowing more about the fighter I can't really comment any further but it seems to me that the two are definitely in the same league at least, which is what this thread is about.On top of  that, the monk has far better utility.  He could be stealthing around at 60' per turn almost as competently as a rogue with a trait.  You don't really need abundant step necessarily at that point if the terrain permits, sneaking around ridiculously fast and having reasonable acrobatics might be enough.  So imagine what happens when the monk ambushes some humanoid who isn't an extremely capable melee fighter, with stunning fists, trips, grapples, Jawbreaker moves, or whatever else you picked.  It's gonna be ugly. And you get to be Bruce Lee.Do you really think monks are so gimped? Archery is great, it has its flaws same as anything else though.</blockquote>

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