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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mad Hamish" data-source="post: 5744213" data-attributes="member: 25321">So you're judging monks based on a campaign where your major enemies are ones that monks do well on, and even then the question is partly how well does a Monk do compared with another class.Your initial gear list was all AC or stat boosting items apart from the monk's Robes, then you added a Holy Weapon and you were about 40000gp over the recommended wealth for the levela) If you aren't geared specifically for arenas then you're doing things strangelyb) you can't complain if I gear up the fighter to the same value of items you have and focus them on combat for a 1 on 1 fight c) your monk needs an 18 on primary attacks to hit the fighter (19 with Haste on the fighter) meaning he'll hit about every 4th round with a primary attack without the fighter having haste, every 5th round with haste on, and every 10 round with a secondary attack.if the monk power attacks his primary attacks need 20 to hit...with the same amount of equipment you've given the monk the fighter has +28/+28/+23 to hit so even if the sense weakness works I believe he needs 10+ on primary attacks and 15 on the secondary So he's got a 25% chance of both primary attacks hitting and an 18.75% chance of 1 primary and the secondary and a 6% chance of all 3 attacks hittingwhich means he'll get at least 1 undodgable hit 19+18.75+6 in 43.75% of rounds. When the Exploit Weakness fails (which I think you said was about 1 in 6) it's very likely that the fighter will get at least 2 hits.So a) I'm not convincedb) even if so it'd be slow enough that the fighter will rip through a fair few things first.what do you think would happen to a 10th level NPC monk against a 10th level PC fighter?You're 40000gp over the recommended wealth and you're complaining about gear I want?The fighter has a better attack bonus than the Bebilith and does more damage per hit.And the Monk's attack bonus is terrible in comparison.which means you're looking at comparing a Monk versus a paladin designed not to do damage.And again, if you're turtling with combat expertise and fighting defensively why will the opposition give a stuff about targeting you?It opens the way to go after the squishies...depends very much on the adventure.and the type of humanoids you're fighting can have a fair impact as well...You're 40000gp over the recommended wealth and you're complaining about gear I want to buy?according to hero labs the fighter has 34 CMD, what bonus does your monk have to trip? Because if he gets 24 or less he goes prone rather than the fighter...what do you think a 10th level fighter, ranger, paladin, inquisator etc would do to a 10th level NPC fighter given 10000+gp worth of gear?They _might_ take a bit more damage but they'll go through it quicker which means they'll be able to go after other targets. The problem is the pretty low attack bonus which means you're flailing against things with high AC.Admittedly a fighter is probably top of the attack bonuses but the other melee classes have ways of buffing themselves (Judgements, spells, smite, favoured enemies)  It's about in the same league as my 2 handed fighter, it'd be behind a sword and board fighteras fast as most hasted humanoid opponents. Quite a few monsters will be in the same league and you're got nothing against flying creatures (or wizards with overland flight up....) a martial artist monk is immune to it.I think the bebilith fight was looking at the snake style one who isn't a martial artist but I won't claim to be sure of thatexploit weakness is pretty much amazing. Makes the Martial Artist extremely tempting The point is a lot of other classes provide things not that far off of themInquisator, Paladin, Ranger, Alchemist etc all give options for things you can do.I was refering to a 1 trick pony in combat rather than in general. My fighter has +10 will saves,+12 on fortitude and +9 on reflex. I believe those are the same or bettr as your first suggested monk build.18 touch AC which is well behind the monkat 10th level a few potions of invisibility will give the fighter a pretty good chance to hide, or a party wizard can do it.boots of speed can give him some rounds of quick movement or boots of striding and springing give him reasonable mobility and he can afford to drop a feat on run if desired...he's got -3 armour penalty (magic full plate, armour training)not a lot of skills (Perception and Intimidate have most of the skill points, with dips in climb, ride and swim)The problem is that a) pathfinder is largely combat based in most campaignsb) every round that opponents stay up is 1 round more that they can do things to the partyc) your suggested monks are doing so much to boost their AC defences that their offence suffers. d) if you get double teamed quite a few of your abilities are only usable against 1 opponent.The problem you've got with power attack is that your attack bonus isn't that high to start with. AoO really comes down to how many chances you get to use them and depending on your opponents that might not happen at all.Two weapon style feats (or flurry) give you a lower chance to hit on each attack and you don't have bonus dice on your attacks.You didn't go with generalist stuff on the list you gave.You went for belt of physical perfection +2headband of wisdom +4monks robeamulet of natural armour +3ring of protection +2bracers of armour +4which gives you +12 to AC, a bonus to monk abilities and stat bonusesyou've got nothing generalist at all.and you gave him a holy weapon against the Bebilith...</blockquote>

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