NOW LIVE! Today's the day you meet your new best friend. You don’t have to leave Wolfy behind... In 'Pets & Sidekicks' your companions level up with you!

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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Thanee" data-source="post: 3002482" data-attributes="member: 478">Ha, I actually found some older posts of mine...[SBLOCK]Psion level 5th, 10th, 15th and 20th (these are the levels at which the "important" spell levels cap, so in favor to the arcanists), assuming reasonable stats (starting at 16, all level improvements applied to them and +2/+4/+6/+6 item included, as well as a +3 inherent at 20th level, also from 15th level onwards, I'll assume each power costs 1 PP less thanks to the torque of psionic world domination <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />).5th PP total 25+10=3510th PP total 88+30=11815th PP total 195+52=247 (-1 PP per manifestation)20th PP total 343+100=443 (-1 PP per manifestation)A 5th level psion can manifest roughly 7 fully augmented powers per day.A 10th level psion can manifest roughly 12 fully augmented powers per day.A 15th level psion can manifest roughly 18 fully augmented powers per day.A 20th level psion can manifest roughly 23 fully augmented powers per day.A 5th level psion knows 11 powers, let's say 5 of those are equivalent to 3rd level powers.A 10th level psion knows 21 powers, let's say 10 of those are equivalent to 5th level powers.A 15th level psion knows 28 powers, let's say 14 of those are equivalent to 8th level powers.A 20th level psion knows 36 powers, let's say 18 of those are equivalent to 9th level powers.The reduced number (1/2) for the highest level powers comes from the fact, that not all are augmentable and a few are simply not worth it anymore. I guess this is a fair assumption.Now for the sorcerer spells per day and wizard spells known (0th not included).Note, that the sorcerer is leagues behind in spells known and the wizard somewhat lacks behind in spellcastings per day, still I pick the optimum from both classes in this comparison in each case!A 5th level sorcerer can cast 7/5/0! spells per day.A 10th level sorcerer can cast 8/8/7/6/4 spells per day.A 15th level sorcerer can cast 8/8/7/7/7/7/4/0! spells per day.A 20th level sorcerer can cast 9/9/8/8/8/8/7/7/7 spells per day.A 5th level wizard knows 14 spells, 2 of those are 3rd level.A 10th level wizard knows 24 spells, 4 of those are 5th level.A 15th level wizard knows 34 spells, 2 of those are 8th level.A 20th level wizard knows 44 spells, 8 of those are 9th level.(plus some more (usually lower level) spells added with money, of course.)So, what do we see here, considering that the psion goes for maximum possible effect and wastes PP at the highest possible rate, the sorcerer needs to resort to the 3-4 highest spell levels to keep up with that number of manifestations. Sure, the sorcerer still has some weak spells left, but then again, each of the psion's manifestations was more powerful (easily up to twice as powerful, considering the lower spell levels involved, I guess there is no argument, that an 8th level power is much, much more powerful than a 5th level spell).Also, the psion knows not that much fewer powers than the wizard knows spells in total, however, the wizard can add more for money, which will most certainly double or triple the number of spells known, but the psion's powers also are in most cases at least worth as much as three spells known, since they include all the lower and higher versions the wizard has to learn seperately, and which are included in this knowledge. So the psion is not really that much behind here for sure. If we look at the highest levels only, then the psion is way ahead even with two to three times as many different high level powers to choose from.Now in total this means, the psion has the knowledge base of the wizard and almost the casting endurance of the sorcerer, while the psion with no doubt has an equal or higher total power in every single manifestation as compared to the spellcasting of both sorcerer and wizard.And this does not take into account the lack of verbal, somatic and material component, the ability to manifest in full plate armor; that the psion is in all ways at the level of the wizard when it comes to gimmicks (skills, feats) and way ahead of the sorcerer here, or to look at it from the other perspective has spontaneous manifestation, which the wizard lacks and which is a huge advantage. It also does not take into account the obviously much better flexibility psions enjoy when it comes to distributing their PP over the day, or when it comes to manifesting a single power (best example the Energy line, but also stuff like Dominate can be custom tailored for the situation each time it is manifested, and these certainly are not the only examples).Best of both worlds, I say, with basically none of the disadvantages of either sorcerer or wizard!Fair? Hardly! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />[/SBLOCK][SBLOCK]Here's the picture I had made for the last thread (<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />) again. It shows a 10th level sorcerer and a 10th level psion and what they can do with their spells/powers in a day. The psion augments every single power to the max!The vertical axis is spell/power level times caster/manifester level (including the spell caps) to show how effective overall one such spell/power is.<img src="http://www.enworld.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=16124" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " data-size="" style="" />The total effect is pretty similar in one day (the picture is certainly not 100% accurate to show this, but should be close enough to demonstrate the similarity), and that is only the case if the sorcerer is able to use all spells slots (at which point the sorcerer probably has a slight advantage on that particular day), which simply will not be the case every day. And everytime the sorcerer does not, the psions advantage improves (which is a lot more often in an average campaign, which is not completely tailored towards the need to balance psions, which should not be such a game-altering requirement to the DM, no class should work that way, that it can only be balanced, if the DM dramatically favors the other classes with the campaign style).And that's just the spellcasting versus manifesting, which does not include the much higher number of high level powers the psion has available, the better flexibility, which is likewise not included here, the effective powers without augmentation, the lack of components, and so on. The psions advantages put that class way ahead here as there are almost no disadvantages to balance them (only really noteworthy are the smaller power base, that is there are more arcane spells available to pick from, and the weaker party buffs).[/SBLOCK][SBLOCK]It's one way to compare, but certainly not the only one and surely (IMHO) not the best one (especially not, if the numbers are flawed, which easily happens, not to blame you there, just the system <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />). I believe the best way is to simply compare spell/power levels at the same scaling/augmentation level, as I have tried earlier.Why? Because it doesn't focus on single spells/powers, which by themselves could (and most certainly will) not be fully balanced among each other, or single hypothetical situations only; it focuses on the potential, which can be brought to bear, be it damage, utility or whatnot. It's more generic and includes many more situations than simple damage dealing ever could. Still it is accurate, since spell levels and caster/manifester levels are the base for the whole system and very much compareable.The crux of this comparison is the following:An x-th level spell of y-th caster level (but not higher than the cap) has about the same effect as an x-th level power augmented to y-th manifester level.The powers are often more flexible by themselves (especially when looking at the kineticist powers, of course), but the actual effect will be and should be roughly the same. The flexibility itself is not covered here, however. The power also costs more effectively, because "scaling" has to be paid for, but this cost is obviously included already, if you compare the augmented power and look how many of those can be manifested compared to scaled-up spells. But do not forget here, that quite a few powers are available also, which have their full effect at minimum augmentation level (in fact do not even have any augmentation in most cases, Fly or Metamorphosis are two of those), so it is not needed to fully augment every power (duration and range do scale for free for psions in the same way as they do for the sorcerer).With this in mind, the number of spellcastings/manifestations per day is being compared.I believe, that in this comparison, the sorcerer and psion come out about even... so far. The sorcerer will win in the endurance department (additional low-level effects), obviously, while the psion clearly wins in the raw power department (more powerful effects in a short time). I consider the latter to be more important (which the "Mystic Theurge problem" effectively demonstrates, who suffers greatly from the lack of high level effects, which is not fully compensated by the huge amount of low level effects they have until they reach very high levels (and by then have much, much more additional low level effects than the sorcerer has over the psion)), but that's just an opinion like any other. All in all, I think it's ok up to this point and neither class is at a considerable advantage yet.Now, if they are about even up to this point, if you look at what is left, because the above is not the whole picture yet, the psion has such a clear advantage there, that it's not even funny.+ usually higher save DCs on augmented powers (further increased by psionatrix)+ faster access to higher power levels+ more "effective spells" known (one power includes more than one spell in most cases), much more high level spells/powers among those (and on top of that the ability to swap all powers, skills and feats out completely at an XP cost)+ much higher flexibility and the ability to manifest more high level powers or a huge amount of low level powers+ many powers have built-in flexibility, which similar spells lack usually+ no need for many metamagic feats (Heighten, Still, Silent, Energy Affinity mostly)+ Quicken Power+ no verbal, somatic, material components (grapple, silence)+ bonus feats+ better feat choices+ better skills (more effective skill points and better class skill list)+ armor- lack of good party buffs, often powers are personal only- weaker base to pick powers from, there simply are more spells out there- more restricted by discipline lists (tho, since they have plenty more feats (bonus feats and non-dependancy on metamagic feats), this can be circumvented with Expanded Knowledge to a degree)- psionic focus issues (tho the feats (Psionic Endowment/Penetration most importantly) are better in comparison and the focus issues can be circumvented to a degree)If I have missed something important here, please point it out, I'll gladly add it to the list. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />[/SBLOCK][SBLOCK]Yeah, if you simply add up spells known (including the almighty 0th level spells, which make up a considerable amount there (over 1/3 of the total) <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />) and compare them one-by-one to powers known... but this comparison is highly flawed.1) Because of the already mentioned 0th level spells, which can be ignored pretty much. Except for Detect Magic mostly, which the psion has to waste a single 1st level power on.2) Because a single power known is "worth" a lot more than a single spell known in most cases, since all the lesser and greater, or I, II, III, etc versions are already included. To be fair, this is partially (but not even close to fully) compensated by the sorcerers ability to swap out single spells every other level.3) Because a 10th level sorcerer knows exactly one 5th level spell, while a psion knows four (real) 5th level powers, plus all the lower level ones, which include higher level versions via augmentation, which will add another 8-10 to the tally for sure.Spell/Power Level | Sorcerer Spells Known | Psion Powers Known0th | 9 | - (1 - Detect Psionics)1st | 5 | 5 (4)2nd | 4 | 4+3rd | 3 | 4++4th | 2 | 4+++5th | 1 | 4++++That's how.[/SBLOCK]ByeThanee</blockquote>

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