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*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Why Psionics is broken and what to do to fix it
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<blockquote data-quote="Tikiman" data-source="post: 3002685" data-attributes="member: 43159"><p>As has been stated several times, the problem you're having is that you have a well built character in a group of people who are of average builds. It sounds as if though you simply know the system better then the rest, and that's a powerful factor in the hands of a caster. All of you are playing within the rules, but you're using those rule to their fullest. Everything about your character seems carefully chosen to enhance his power while other characters appear to have let a d20 decide what feat they chose at that level (or even worse, they chose them for flavor reasons <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> ). And you have feats/spells that are of questionable power level, and are clearly more powerful then what your comrads have chosen. The solution to this problem, as has already been stated, is to remove some of his more powerful attributes until he's on par with the rest of the party. Temporal Acceleration, Practiced 'blah', and Prophecy's Hero are all candidates.</p><p></p><p>And again, your character is 50% wizard, 50% psion. If he's overpowered it must be due to both of these characteristics. The only reason you can do half of the stuff you're doing with psionics is because you have those wizard abilities to back you up.</p><p></p><p>What you're seeing isn't a problem with the psionics system in particular. It's a problem with your specific character in your specific group at your specific gaming table.</p><p></p><p></p><p>The poll specifically gets around these problems. Classes that did not recieve many votes (such as the Artificeer) were specifically called out as not getting many votes. Psions got plenty. And the poll wasn't 'compare class X to class Y' it was just 'rank class power on a scale of 1-10'. The poll covered 30 different threads, which covered multitudes of different DM's, tables, players, styles, houserules, books allowed, etc. The average experiences real players have had with the psion indicate that it's power is close to, but a smidge short of the wizard. The guy who summarized the polls even confessed to an anti-psi bias. If you want to mathematically test the limites of either class, that's been done time and time again on the Psionics forums in the Myth threads. Wizards, due mostly to metamagic rods and non-core books, can* win <u>every</u> contest (again, nothing is more powerful then a properly prepaired wizard). As I linked earlier, the king of a Nova is actually a mage (who can dish out ~73k in one round, or 2k dmg to multiple targets with just a swift action if he's not trying to blow up the world). I think the best a Psion could do was around 10k.</p><p></p><p>Oh, and all links to the WotC forums are currently not working because of convention traffic (well, you have to register to see the forums).</p><p></p><p>*note that I'm saying a wizard 'could' do this, not that every wizard can. There is some spell in a non-core book that lets the caster spend up to an hour in quite contemplation as a standard action (used to be a 2nd ed spell). Combine that with leaving spell slots open and a wizard can 'spontaneously' cast any spell in his spell book. A Silenced DDoor/Teleport (feat or rod or class ability) can get a wizard out of a Silenced Grapple situation (in fact, the mage in wildstarsreach's party can do this). There are material's and PrCs that can allow a wizard to cast in Full Plate with no negative effects. As you stated, Archmages can use any energy type (including Acid, which Psions can't), or you can get feats that let you do that, or you could just take one of the several feats that allow your spells to ignore energy resistance (and even immunity to some degree). 5 out of 6 psions have to take a feat to get Dominate, while any wizard of any level could try to cast Dominate Monster from a scroll (I think a UMD build can do this as early as 10 with no chance of failure). Again, I'm not saying that all mages can do all things better then psions, but when you get into build vs. build, the wizard is always capable of outdoing the psion (sometimes he has to use a backdoor, such as using powers that don't allow saves to compete with psions pumping out high save powers). In exchange for this, nothing is more gimped then a poorly prepaired mage. Player skill is very important when playing a wizard, while the psion is much more 'noob friendly'.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Do you mean the ones on page 132? I've read that and I don't understand what you mean. A wizard built to do those things is still the king of artillery, utility, items, and telling people what to do.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Complete Psionc added a couple of save-or-die type effects. One of them is like disintigrate but it only targets critters with 3+ int. Another mimics the petryfying gaze attack of a Medusa. The only one that actually forces the target to instantly die cannot be taken by a Psion pre-epic (lvl 9 mantle power). You are correct in the notion that Psions have weaker save or die effects than mages. To make up for that they're raw damage capabilities are stronger (though a well prepaired mage can still win that contest with non-core material by about 60k damage).</p><p></p><p>In all, Complete Psionic did more harm to psionics then help, and smacked you with an editing error at leats once every 3 pages. It's widley considered the worst of the Complete books (average rating 4/10). I sent mine back.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm slightly confused here. Anticipitory Strike lets you shift your initiative around, but only after you've taken an action (cannot be used while flat-footed, all player are flat-footed until their iniative come up). It's like Delaying, but a swift action. You cannot use this power to go more then once in a round btw. Synchronicity is a power that is poorly worded, and can therefore become broken. Much like Temporal Acceleration, it's common advice to pull it from a character if they're found abusing it. The thing to remember is that it doesn't grant you any extra actions, so if you use it in the 1st round to go twice, you don't get an action in the 2nd round, and can't use any immediate actions until the 3rd round.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tikiman, post: 3002685, member: 43159"] As has been stated several times, the problem you're having is that you have a well built character in a group of people who are of average builds. It sounds as if though you simply know the system better then the rest, and that's a powerful factor in the hands of a caster. All of you are playing within the rules, but you're using those rule to their fullest. Everything about your character seems carefully chosen to enhance his power while other characters appear to have let a d20 decide what feat they chose at that level (or even worse, they chose them for flavor reasons ;) ). And you have feats/spells that are of questionable power level, and are clearly more powerful then what your comrads have chosen. The solution to this problem, as has already been stated, is to remove some of his more powerful attributes until he's on par with the rest of the party. Temporal Acceleration, Practiced 'blah', and Prophecy's Hero are all candidates. And again, your character is 50% wizard, 50% psion. If he's overpowered it must be due to both of these characteristics. The only reason you can do half of the stuff you're doing with psionics is because you have those wizard abilities to back you up. What you're seeing isn't a problem with the psionics system in particular. It's a problem with your specific character in your specific group at your specific gaming table. The poll specifically gets around these problems. Classes that did not recieve many votes (such as the Artificeer) were specifically called out as not getting many votes. Psions got plenty. And the poll wasn't 'compare class X to class Y' it was just 'rank class power on a scale of 1-10'. The poll covered 30 different threads, which covered multitudes of different DM's, tables, players, styles, houserules, books allowed, etc. The average experiences real players have had with the psion indicate that it's power is close to, but a smidge short of the wizard. The guy who summarized the polls even confessed to an anti-psi bias. If you want to mathematically test the limites of either class, that's been done time and time again on the Psionics forums in the Myth threads. Wizards, due mostly to metamagic rods and non-core books, can* win [U]every[/U] contest (again, nothing is more powerful then a properly prepaired wizard). As I linked earlier, the king of a Nova is actually a mage (who can dish out ~73k in one round, or 2k dmg to multiple targets with just a swift action if he's not trying to blow up the world). I think the best a Psion could do was around 10k. Oh, and all links to the WotC forums are currently not working because of convention traffic (well, you have to register to see the forums). *note that I'm saying a wizard 'could' do this, not that every wizard can. There is some spell in a non-core book that lets the caster spend up to an hour in quite contemplation as a standard action (used to be a 2nd ed spell). Combine that with leaving spell slots open and a wizard can 'spontaneously' cast any spell in his spell book. A Silenced DDoor/Teleport (feat or rod or class ability) can get a wizard out of a Silenced Grapple situation (in fact, the mage in wildstarsreach's party can do this). There are material's and PrCs that can allow a wizard to cast in Full Plate with no negative effects. As you stated, Archmages can use any energy type (including Acid, which Psions can't), or you can get feats that let you do that, or you could just take one of the several feats that allow your spells to ignore energy resistance (and even immunity to some degree). 5 out of 6 psions have to take a feat to get Dominate, while any wizard of any level could try to cast Dominate Monster from a scroll (I think a UMD build can do this as early as 10 with no chance of failure). Again, I'm not saying that all mages can do all things better then psions, but when you get into build vs. build, the wizard is always capable of outdoing the psion (sometimes he has to use a backdoor, such as using powers that don't allow saves to compete with psions pumping out high save powers). In exchange for this, nothing is more gimped then a poorly prepaired mage. Player skill is very important when playing a wizard, while the psion is much more 'noob friendly'. Do you mean the ones on page 132? I've read that and I don't understand what you mean. A wizard built to do those things is still the king of artillery, utility, items, and telling people what to do. Complete Psionc added a couple of save-or-die type effects. One of them is like disintigrate but it only targets critters with 3+ int. Another mimics the petryfying gaze attack of a Medusa. The only one that actually forces the target to instantly die cannot be taken by a Psion pre-epic (lvl 9 mantle power). You are correct in the notion that Psions have weaker save or die effects than mages. To make up for that they're raw damage capabilities are stronger (though a well prepaired mage can still win that contest with non-core material by about 60k damage). In all, Complete Psionic did more harm to psionics then help, and smacked you with an editing error at leats once every 3 pages. It's widley considered the worst of the Complete books (average rating 4/10). I sent mine back. I'm slightly confused here. Anticipitory Strike lets you shift your initiative around, but only after you've taken an action (cannot be used while flat-footed, all player are flat-footed until their iniative come up). It's like Delaying, but a swift action. You cannot use this power to go more then once in a round btw. Synchronicity is a power that is poorly worded, and can therefore become broken. Much like Temporal Acceleration, it's common advice to pull it from a character if they're found abusing it. The thing to remember is that it doesn't grant you any extra actions, so if you use it in the 1st round to go twice, you don't get an action in the 2nd round, and can't use any immediate actions until the 3rd round. [/QUOTE]
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