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Message: <blockquote data-quote="adembroski3" data-source="post: 1558685" data-attributes="member: 18909">In terms of pure debate, mythusmage, you are capable of handling most comers, I can see that, but I'm not understanding your motivation here.Are you trying to "win" or render a convincing arguement. It sounds more like you are seeing this as a competition.As far as my view, the primary reason RPGs are on a downturn is the "dork" stigma attached to them. They will *never* be mainstream, and I doubt most of us want them to be. Though none of the gamers I've ever played with actually represent the stereotype, the stereotype exists none the less, and this hurts the industry.I don't believe it's the rules that hurt D&D, by any means. The rules are a tool, nothing more. That said, I can see your argument perhaps from a perspective that you might not have expected, and that is by looking at the presentation of those rules.The authors of the 3.0 Core Rulebooks put an emphisis on the "return to the dungeon", it was a big advertising point. It was the central theme going into the release of 3rd edition, and the them did not lessen with 3.5. This, in my opinion, hurt D&D. I don't think the majority of gamers WANTED to return to the dungeon. To me, at least, the whole thing kinda felt like reverse evolution. We had evolved the game from a fantasy skirmish game, little more than Warhammer with less figures, into an infinately deep engagement involving personaes and motivations. However little RP exists in a given game, it's likely that there is more than what existed when Gygax was running his players through Castle Greyhawk.Yet this is what WotC seemed to be pushing. Lets go back to the stone age! We're sick of sophistication! We're tired of progress! Lets pack up some meat, park the car on the side of the road, and go find a cave to paint pictures on teh wall in for the rest of our lives!The rules are not holding back D&D. The rules are abstract and unrealistic, but I have yet to come across a practical and realistic ruleset. It is the manor in which those rules are presented that is the problem.</blockquote>

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