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<blockquote data-quote="rounser" data-source="post: 7057789" data-attributes="member: 1106">I would venture that surprisingly, there is enough combat interest and drama purely in d20 attack rolls, a bit of maneuvering, and spells.&nbsp; The problem with adding too much crunch to combat is that along with the added combat length it takes people mentally out of the story and into what is effectively a sub-game, a game within the game.&nbsp; 4E is the worst offender in this respect.I'm sorry but this is frankly not true.&nbsp; There's simply too much crunch in 3E for it to be anywhere near as fast as Rules Cyclopedia, from attacks of opportunity to the heavy miniatures reliance (a biggie) to all the bonuses and modifiers adding up.&nbsp; 4E is a miniatures skirmish wargame in disguise, which is why it is so slow, and 5E goes crazy with modifiers so it's even slower.I would argue that everyone basically wants the same thing - a quick game's a good game in order to accomplish anything in the course of a campaign without taking decades instead of years.With regards to edition warring, note that I've partially complemented other editions in terms of, for example, having partially the right amount of splat.&nbsp; I'm a fan of most other editions, but think it's important to recognise their limitations where the rubber meets the road, which is combat length and prep time.&nbsp; The idea of newer editions with more rules and more splat being better is a natural assumption, but mostly an illusion.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="rounser, post: 7057789, member: 1106"] I would venture that surprisingly, there is enough combat interest and drama purely in d20 attack rolls, a bit of maneuvering, and spells. The problem with adding too much crunch to combat is that along with the added combat length it takes people mentally out of the story and into what is effectively a sub-game, a game within the game. 4E is the worst offender in this respect. I'm sorry but this is frankly not true. There's simply too much crunch in 3E for it to be anywhere near as fast as Rules Cyclopedia, from attacks of opportunity to the heavy miniatures reliance (a biggie) to all the bonuses and modifiers adding up. 4E is a miniatures skirmish wargame in disguise, which is why it is so slow, and 5E goes crazy with modifiers so it's even slower. I would argue that everyone basically wants the same thing - a quick game's a good game in order to accomplish anything in the course of a campaign without taking decades instead of years. With regards to edition warring, note that I've partially complemented other editions in terms of, for example, having partially the right amount of splat. I'm a fan of most other editions, but think it's important to recognise their limitations where the rubber meets the road, which is combat length and prep time. The idea of newer editions with more rules and more splat being better is a natural assumption, but mostly an illusion. [/QUOTE]

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