Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Why Rules Lawyering Is a Negative Term
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Oofta" data-source="post: 7627423" data-attributes="member: 6801845"><p>First I just want to comment on the "everybody likes rules lawyers when their on your side". Nope. Not me. But it was written by a dedicated rules lawyer who thought it was fun to find some exploit in the rules for personal gain so they probably do believe it. In my experience rules lawyers care more about gaming the system than they are about playing the game.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Rules lawyers have a bad reputation because they disrupt the game with arguments often twisting words and spells in their favor. It's not that they know the rules well, it's that they hunt for gray areas in the rules. Their goal is to "break" the game, not have fun.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I have several versions of rules lawyers. Most of them are some mix.</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>The cheaters. </strong> </p><p>You know who they are. They apply misapply bonuses, "misread" rules in their favor on a regular basis (everybody does it now and then) deliberately fudge the rules. This is most often done with some obscure multi-class and feat combination perhaps along with a magic item. Anything so that when you ask them they can rattle off</p><p></p><p></p><p>I had a guy (in 4E) that said they had a power that "ate" enemy action surges. He never had his books on him and hand-wrote his version of the rules that he would show the DM. When he was finally caught he just looked sheepish and said "well nobody ever questioned it" which was completely untrue.</p><p></p><p></p><p>In another campaign (I wasn't the DM), we had a cleric who had ludicrously high DCs for his spells. When asked how he did it by another player, he just sniffed and said "it's complicated". Nobody could ever figure out other than "magic math".</p><p></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>The nitpicker/metagamer. </strong> </p><p>During a game the nitpicker will question everything the monsters do. Expect lots of "how did they do that" and "monster ___ doesn't work that way". Uggh. Please. Put away the monster manual and just enjoy the game. This gets to the point of rules lawyer when they start arguing with the DM about minutae of actions and abilities. I run a cinematic game and if it doesn't affect the outcome I'll take liberties now and then. Like the guy that really had time to get to the door and lock it waits until you come around the corner to give you a hand signal before closing and locking the door.</p><p></p><p></p><p>We had one guy (the cleric from above) who would literally have the MM open and let everyone know exactly what the text of the creature's abilities were. Then he'd keep track of HP, abilities like legendary saves, tell people what spells to use to use up those legendary saves, etc.</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>The arguer/pouter/whiner.</strong></p><p>I kind of lump these people together, but they will argue until they are blue in the face that their interpretation of the rules is the correct one. If the DM takes a hard line and will not argue about it during the game (which is what I do, we can discuss it after the game) they'll whine about it. "But I reeeeaaally waaaannnnaaaa". When done whining they'll pout.</p><p></p><p></p><p>We had a guy who was flying while invisible. In heavy armor. He thought he should be undetectable but the DM "only" gave them a stealth after they complained when the DM pointed out that it was an enclosed space and that he barely had room to fly above the enemy.</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>The exploiter.</strong></p><p>Give them an inch, they'll take a mile every time. Write a book in natural language and not in technical gamer terms and they try to chisel out every advantage possible. I'd reference the thread that spawned this topic, but don't want to derail the topic. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Usually this is something along the lines of "the rules don't specifically state". An example from back in the day (pre errata) was reloading dual hand crossbows. The rules didn't specifically state that you had to have a hand free to draw ammunition, so therefore ammunition just magically transferred itself from your quiver to the crossbow.</p><p></p><p></p><p>This also happens when someone is multiclass a/b/c with feat x. Unlike the cheater above, there may be some gray area but they will spend hours scouring the message boards for exploits that might just work. See the simulacrum army exploit or pun-pun for an example.</p><p></p><p></p><p>They may also selectively quote rules, skipping over clarifications so it sounds better. For example use the Mold Earth cantrip on pavement and "read" the rules and state that it affects a 5 ft area of earth or stone. Then they'll excavate a 5 ft cube of pavement skipping over the part that excavation requires loose dirt. Oh, and just for funsies they'll do this directly underneath someone and then "trap" the target in the stone that's reformed around them.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Oofta, post: 7627423, member: 6801845"] First I just want to comment on the "everybody likes rules lawyers when their on your side". Nope. Not me. But it was written by a dedicated rules lawyer who thought it was fun to find some exploit in the rules for personal gain so they probably do believe it. In my experience rules lawyers care more about gaming the system than they are about playing the game. Rules lawyers have a bad reputation because they disrupt the game with arguments often twisting words and spells in their favor. It's not that they know the rules well, it's that they hunt for gray areas in the rules. Their goal is to "break" the game, not have fun. I have several versions of rules lawyers. Most of them are some mix. [B]The cheaters. [/B] You know who they are. They apply misapply bonuses, "misread" rules in their favor on a regular basis (everybody does it now and then) deliberately fudge the rules. This is most often done with some obscure multi-class and feat combination perhaps along with a magic item. Anything so that when you ask them they can rattle off I had a guy (in 4E) that said they had a power that "ate" enemy action surges. He never had his books on him and hand-wrote his version of the rules that he would show the DM. When he was finally caught he just looked sheepish and said "well nobody ever questioned it" which was completely untrue. In another campaign (I wasn't the DM), we had a cleric who had ludicrously high DCs for his spells. When asked how he did it by another player, he just sniffed and said "it's complicated". Nobody could ever figure out other than "magic math". [B] The nitpicker/metagamer. [/B] During a game the nitpicker will question everything the monsters do. Expect lots of "how did they do that" and "monster ___ doesn't work that way". Uggh. Please. Put away the monster manual and just enjoy the game. This gets to the point of rules lawyer when they start arguing with the DM about minutae of actions and abilities. I run a cinematic game and if it doesn't affect the outcome I'll take liberties now and then. Like the guy that really had time to get to the door and lock it waits until you come around the corner to give you a hand signal before closing and locking the door. We had one guy (the cleric from above) who would literally have the MM open and let everyone know exactly what the text of the creature's abilities were. Then he'd keep track of HP, abilities like legendary saves, tell people what spells to use to use up those legendary saves, etc. [B]The arguer/pouter/whiner.[/B] I kind of lump these people together, but they will argue until they are blue in the face that their interpretation of the rules is the correct one. If the DM takes a hard line and will not argue about it during the game (which is what I do, we can discuss it after the game) they'll whine about it. "But I reeeeaaally waaaannnnaaaa". When done whining they'll pout. We had a guy who was flying while invisible. In heavy armor. He thought he should be undetectable but the DM "only" gave them a stealth after they complained when the DM pointed out that it was an enclosed space and that he barely had room to fly above the enemy. [B]The exploiter.[/B] Give them an inch, they'll take a mile every time. Write a book in natural language and not in technical gamer terms and they try to chisel out every advantage possible. I'd reference the thread that spawned this topic, but don't want to derail the topic. Usually this is something along the lines of "the rules don't specifically state". An example from back in the day (pre errata) was reloading dual hand crossbows. The rules didn't specifically state that you had to have a hand free to draw ammunition, so therefore ammunition just magically transferred itself from your quiver to the crossbow. This also happens when someone is multiclass a/b/c with feat x. Unlike the cheater above, there may be some gray area but they will spend hours scouring the message boards for exploits that might just work. See the simulacrum army exploit or pun-pun for an example. They may also selectively quote rules, skipping over clarifications so it sounds better. For example use the Mold Earth cantrip on pavement and "read" the rules and state that it affects a 5 ft area of earth or stone. Then they'll excavate a 5 ft cube of pavement skipping over the part that excavation requires loose dirt. Oh, and just for funsies they'll do this directly underneath someone and then "trap" the target in the stone that's reformed around them. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Why Rules Lawyering Is a Negative Term
Top