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<blockquote data-quote="Henry" data-source="post: 3869718" data-attributes="member: 158">I don't know if that's the argument, or if it's that fighters posessing innate magic would make MAGIC less special, not wizards. The way old D&amp;D was, everyone had a niche -- the wizards were &quot;magic guy (or gal)&quot;. Fighters were the ones who could stand toe to toe with an enemy and not go down in one or two hits. Clerics were a bit of both -- Thieves could do things that even magic couldn't do, originally, such as find traps, pick pockets, etc. Later, in AD&amp;D, mages stepped on other people's toes, but they could only do it a few times a day. Still later, mages can step on other people's toes, and thanks to metamagics and easier to craft magic items, they, and especially clerics, can step on other people's toes ALL DAY LONG, practically. So it's natural to want something more &quot;flashy&quot; for each class, so that one or two classes don't hog all the fun (especially at high levels).The only thing is, the dependency that classes had on one another, and the stereotypes, has diminished along the way. In a way, the new systems in 4E is one way to get classes to depend on one another again. A fighter will need the &quot;strikers&quot; and &quot;leaders&quot;, just as they'll need the fighter once again to keep them out of harm's way.The problem is that all of us fantasy buffs of Conan, Fafhrd and the Mouser, Arthur and Merlin, Caramon and Raistlin, etc. can't shake that image of the sort of ordinary world, graced with just a touch of the fantastic, even if our own home games don't always play out that way, and the non-supernatural fighter was one way, perhaps the last way, to keep in touch with that older fantasy image.Me, as long as I can still make fighters that have unstoppable ripostes, undefeatable tumbles, and irresistible swings, instead of fire trails, mirror images, and fiery exploding swings, then I'll be happy. I'm happy with an ability that allows STR damage even on a miss, or a devastating penetrating spear attack, or extra attacks with flails - those are still rooted in skill, even if it's skill that is stretching the bounds of plausiblity a little.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Henry, post: 3869718, member: 158"] I don't know if that's the argument, or if it's that fighters posessing innate magic would make MAGIC less special, not wizards. The way old D&D was, everyone had a niche -- the wizards were "magic guy (or gal)". Fighters were the ones who could stand toe to toe with an enemy and not go down in one or two hits. Clerics were a bit of both -- Thieves could do things that even magic couldn't do, originally, such as find traps, pick pockets, etc. Later, in AD&D, mages stepped on other people's toes, but they could only do it a few times a day. Still later, mages can step on other people's toes, and thanks to metamagics and easier to craft magic items, they, and especially clerics, can step on other people's toes ALL DAY LONG, practically. So it's natural to want something more "flashy" for each class, so that one or two classes don't hog all the fun (especially at high levels). The only thing is, the dependency that classes had on one another, and the stereotypes, has diminished along the way. In a way, the new systems in 4E is one way to get classes to depend on one another again. A fighter will need the "strikers" and "leaders", just as they'll need the fighter once again to keep them out of harm's way. The problem is that all of us fantasy buffs of Conan, Fafhrd and the Mouser, Arthur and Merlin, Caramon and Raistlin, etc. can't shake that image of the sort of ordinary world, graced with just a touch of the fantastic, even if our own home games don't always play out that way, and the non-supernatural fighter was one way, perhaps the last way, to keep in touch with that older fantasy image. Me, as long as I can still make fighters that have unstoppable ripostes, undefeatable tumbles, and irresistible swings, instead of fire trails, mirror images, and fiery exploding swings, then I'll be happy. I'm happy with an ability that allows STR damage even on a miss, or a devastating penetrating spear attack, or extra attacks with flails - those are still rooted in skill, even if it's skill that is stretching the bounds of plausiblity a little. [/QUOTE]

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