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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Dethklok" data-source="post: 6244226" data-attributes="member: 6746469">Almost no one in the gaming community wants simple games. Hence the sense I have that it's worth my saying "Hey, I do!" Understood. But I will point out that you don't need good eyesight if you play with simple character sheets and high contrast dice. You definitely don't need good eyesight if you play with coins and no character sheets.Let me put it this way... You mentioned that candles would seem cheezy to you, right? Nasal seventeen year olds yelling  "Lightning bolt! Lightning bolt!" and throwing bean bags at me doesn't exactly set the mood for a captivating experience. Maybe LARP could work well, but... I've never seen it.Derren, few rules does not equate to no rules. I've never had a player wonder why his character got knocked out.Of course.Yes it does - unless the game master skips half the rules.(Since I know you're also a designer, I'll add, for example, that initiative rolls rarely make sense; logically whoever has the longer weapon should attack first (from outside range; the reverse in close). Damage rolls are another example; if I roll 19 on my d20 to-hit, and roll a 1 on my damage die, was it a good hit, or wasn't it? The 19 should have already told us how effective the attack was, but it evidently it didn't, because now we're sitting around while you roll another die. Even "simple" games are wedded to these counterintuitive, time wasting concepts.)  Rules limit. That's why in a tea party or game on the monkey bars, if one kid decides he's suddenly turned into an alien and another says he can call down airstrikes, well, that's what happens.Derren mentioned this; without any limitations, games can quickly degenerate into structureless free-for-alls. That's why rules are seen as beneficial, because without agreed-upon limitations, the game devolves into surrealism and nobody takes them seriously. But after you establish basic ground-rules regarding continuity and how success and failure are determined, how do more rules help for a game?Absolutely, and really, as an outsider looking in, this to me explains why most rpgs are so full of rules. My finding that powergamers who like rulebooks and leveling up score lower on psychometric <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Openness_to_experience" target="_blank">Openness to Experience</a> than people endorsing a preference for story elements was really eye-opening in this regard. It may be a surprise that uncreative or unimaginative people would play roleplaying games at all, but they do - and if they do, then wouldn't they need as much structure as possible to help them imagine what's going on?  I've never experienced it past the age of twelve. In my experience, a clean, simple set of rules doesn't invite complaint because everything is cut, dried, and straightforward.  I do agree - but that's not a selling point for complexity. In fact, isn't it just the opposite?Though I am passionate about simplicity, simpler isn't better for everybody. Some gamers like rules, or at least see rules as having a very low cost, so complex games are what they should play. But what I do think is that the average person, and thus the typical potential gamer, is more moderate on rules.A big reason why gamers are seen as basement-dwellers is because there is a huge starting cost to playing rules-heavy games. You have to buy the rules, learn the rules, and then use the rules, all of which requires a hard-core mindset. I have much better luck playing with non-gamers.The last time I played, it was with two gradeschoolers and a teenager. Every player had a 3x5" card and two dice. None of them had played before, so I taught them in three minutes.But hey, if it works for you to think most people want to sit around for a half an hour while you tell them how to have fun, then you go ahead and keep doing what you're doing.(I love game design. I've actually done that too, although our sense of what's complex might differ by an order of magnitude!)If there were a market for the games I liked to play, I'd be happy as a clam. In point of fact, there isn't. Games are complicated by default.</blockquote>

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