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Message: <blockquote data-quote="molonel" data-source="post: 1704967" data-attributes="member: 10412">The Fall of Gondolin is described in the Silmarillion as one of the last great sieges of Middle Earth, and the last great elven city to fall. Morgoth, among whose minions Sauron was only counted a lieutenant, and who according to the Silmarillion had many of the Maiar among his followers, used all of his collective might to crush it. Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs, fell during that battle. If you want to think that Morgoth defeated the greatest of the Elven cities by flinging thousands upon thousands of orcs at it, fine. I'll take Tolkien's version over yours. But we can see, yet again, how the sources are culled to meet the needs of the argument. Just remember that Sting, the mighty blade carried by Frodo throughout the Lord of the Rings, was a mere dagger from Gondolin. There is no place in any source by Tolkien which I am aware of where the numbers of the balrogs are listed in the single digits. And you have not provided one. You simply say that somewhere somehow that "seemed" to be your impression. Yet I can point to a story by Tolkien which directly, deliberately and unquestionably says otherwise. Also, since even the Silmarillion is a posthumously published collection, arguing that one is a definitive version of events - and naturally, the one you prefer must be definitive - is rather silly, especially since you can't point to any specific examples that contradict what I've provided.I never said they were completely synonymous, remember? I've read the stories. The dragon he killed with the dagger bound between 3 poles and a poison apple never breathed fire. It wasn't even red. I understand that Robert E. Howard wasn't using the D&D Monster Manual. I'm not the one that is arguing Conan fought challenges appropriate to his CR. On the one hand, you don't want me to say that Robert E. Howard used the monster manual, but on the other hand, you want to use Conan as an example of a single player facing appropriate CR monsters. Make up your mind. Either Howard was operating within D&D parameters, or he wasn't. Personally, I don't think he was. You seem to think otherwise.I'm claiming that it's not low-magic by the standards of people who appear to be using Robert E. Howard as their example. I'm also claiming that using Conan as an example of low-magic is rather silly, since by any standards of magic or fantasy, Conan was a twink powergamer. If you consider Conan low-magic, then you must consider the Vow of Poverty in The Book of Exalted Deeds low-magic.</blockquote>

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