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Message: <blockquote data-quote="molonel" data-source="post: 1718551" data-attributes="member: 10412">barsoomcore, I'm going to wade through the flotsam and jetsam of whatever Philosophy 101 class you just took, and step to the meat of what you said in your last post. A discussion has degenerated far past any usefulness when two people insist on saying, "Actually, what I really said/meant/thought was X," or "No, that's not what I said" and "Yes it is!" and "No it isn't!" I'll deal with what you are saying in the present, and you grant me the same courtesy. That avoids the buildup of misunderstandings. I won't make any reference to anything which anyone else has said or argued, nor anything that you've said before now. Fair? I'm also going to ignore the snipes at how I present myself, or my arguments. It doesn't accomplish anything. If you are really interested in arguing the points, rather than attacking the person, then you will do the same.Okay. So you aren't arguing against the idea that even within a setting which might be considered "low magic" (I'm saying MIGHT, not definitely) there may be cultures in which there is a higher distribution of magic. And the average person might just be familiar with magic. That's useful to know.Actually, I agree with you. Since I don't consider the average D&D game to be a genuinely, undeniably high magic setting - certainly nothing on the level of the Forgotten Realms, or Spelljammer - what tends to set adventurers apart is their high level of magical gear. I've never argued that D&D 3.5 characters don't have a good spread of magic items. Compare the average character wealth by level on page 135 of the 3.5 DMG to the average wealth of NPCs of the same level on page 127. At 20th level, the average PC (going by the book) has 760,000 GP worth of treasure, magic items, etc. The average NPC at the same level has less than a third of that. For a 20th level NPC fighter, 220,000 GP is enough for a good weapon, a good suit of armor and maybe one or two other items. The "average" 20th level NPC fighter listed on page 117 - and this is someone who would certainly be a general or a well-known NPC fighter in any non-epic campaign world - is listed with a +4 suit of armor, a +3 shield, a couple of AC items and a stat item (probably strength). The first magic item we even see on the charts for an NPC fighter is 6th level, and he gets a suit of +1 full plate.So I agree: just because heroes, or player characters, have a high amount of magic items in no way indicates that the setting itself displays a high amount of magic use. But understand that I also apply this logic to the standard D&D setting. I think it's possible to misconstrue the level of magic in the standard D&D world by using the PLAYERS as the yardstick for what folks think is available or common to the rest of the world.Let's refer to these infamous charts we've been talking about, shall we? Flip to page 139 of the 3.5 DMG. You say all people encounter magic on a daily basis in a standard D&D game. But in anything smaller than a large town, the most anyone who lives out their lives in a small town (population up to 2,000 people) ever encounters is a 1d4-th level wizard or sorceror, or a 1d6-th level cleric. That is the highest level possible for NPCs in those settings. That also means that in a hamlet or thorp, it's entirely possible - and statistically likely - that with the modifiers listed there will be nobody from several spellcasting classes. In other words, no, all people do not encounter magic on a daily basis. There are higher level spellcasters available in large metropolises, and in specially magical communities. But note that in the MAJORITY of randomly generated towns (70 percent, by the book) the most anyone will EVER encounter is a 4th level arcane caster.I contend two things, in return:1. I do not believe that the standard distribution of magic, whether by magic items or spellcasters per unit of the population, is as high in the standard D&D world as you seem to imply. Nor do I believe that the standard distribution of magic, by either means, is as low in either Hyboria or Third Age Middle Earth. Do I believe that Hyboria is high magic? Well, if I did, then I've never said so. But I'm not sure it's so different from the "standard" D&D world, and you've given me no particularly compelling reason to think otherwise.2. How much magic - by either standard - appears in a "standard" D&D world depends on two things: the commonality of high population centers, and the amount of civilization that appears in the world. One of the reasons the "adept" is an NPC class is precisely because it says that some cultures don't have the sophistication or development to train clerics or wizards.</blockquote>

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