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Why the claim of combat and class balance between the classes is mainly a forum issue. (In my opinion)
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<blockquote data-quote="Mercurius" data-source="post: 6241253" data-attributes="member: 59082"><p>I feel obliged to say something in this mega-thread because [MENTION=85870]innerdude[/MENTION] so kindly paired me with the brilliant, if allegedly self-important, Marshall McLuhan.</p><p></p><p>I think [MENTION=85870]innerdude[/MENTION] expressed something about [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]'s perspective that I was trying to get across, but in a much clearer manner. I also agree with the idea that pemerton's approach is rather unusual - and probably quite skilled - within the context of 4E, and shouldn't be taken as the "typical example" of how 4E is played. So even though pemerton proves that 4E <em>can </em>be played in a certain way, it doesn't mean it is designed in such a manner to easily facilitate such play.</p><p></p><p>Pemerton, I honestly think this is a case of you being too clever, and skilled, to see that what you are doing is not easy, or even encouraged, by the 4E rules. Even if it is stated within the 4E rules, the end result for a large number of players is that 4E did <em>not </em>in fact encourage the type of immersion you have spoken of, and that the AEDU paradigm had the net result of distancing players from their characters, turning the latter into tokens to manipulate by the former.</p><p></p><p>As someone said in another thread, the "feel" of D&D outside of combat is largely the same, regardless of edition (although I would add that character creation and advancement is also quite different). Sure, there are differences in how social interactions and skills are employed, but by and large the DM sets a scene and the players interact within it, making choices that guide the narrative. It is when combat starts that the differences between editions really start to show up, and 4E inspired a kind of cognitive dissonance between combat and non-combat, like they were two different games - and this largely due to both the requirement of the battlemat and the AEDU structure.</p><p></p><p>Now if you're able to reduce or eliminate this cognitive dissonance it likely means that you take an unusual approach to the game and/or you're a very skilled DM and/or you have very accomplished players. I suspect all three. </p><p></p><p>One final note. I think a big underlying "problem" with 4E, so to speak, is a carry-over from 3E, but magnified further - and it is that system mastery is required to really bring out the fullness of the game experience. This was true of 3E with regards to character optimization, but in 4E it is more relevant to not only "tactical optimization" but immersion. Its just too hard to get to the point where the rules are transparent.</p><p></p><p>Actually, this inspires me to start a related thread - a hypothesis that I'd like to further explore. I'll post a link momentarily.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Mercurius, post: 6241253, member: 59082"] I feel obliged to say something in this mega-thread because [MENTION=85870]innerdude[/MENTION] so kindly paired me with the brilliant, if allegedly self-important, Marshall McLuhan. I think [MENTION=85870]innerdude[/MENTION] expressed something about [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]'s perspective that I was trying to get across, but in a much clearer manner. I also agree with the idea that pemerton's approach is rather unusual - and probably quite skilled - within the context of 4E, and shouldn't be taken as the "typical example" of how 4E is played. So even though pemerton proves that 4E [I]can [/I]be played in a certain way, it doesn't mean it is designed in such a manner to easily facilitate such play. Pemerton, I honestly think this is a case of you being too clever, and skilled, to see that what you are doing is not easy, or even encouraged, by the 4E rules. Even if it is stated within the 4E rules, the end result for a large number of players is that 4E did [I]not [/I]in fact encourage the type of immersion you have spoken of, and that the AEDU paradigm had the net result of distancing players from their characters, turning the latter into tokens to manipulate by the former. As someone said in another thread, the "feel" of D&D outside of combat is largely the same, regardless of edition (although I would add that character creation and advancement is also quite different). Sure, there are differences in how social interactions and skills are employed, but by and large the DM sets a scene and the players interact within it, making choices that guide the narrative. It is when combat starts that the differences between editions really start to show up, and 4E inspired a kind of cognitive dissonance between combat and non-combat, like they were two different games - and this largely due to both the requirement of the battlemat and the AEDU structure. Now if you're able to reduce or eliminate this cognitive dissonance it likely means that you take an unusual approach to the game and/or you're a very skilled DM and/or you have very accomplished players. I suspect all three. One final note. I think a big underlying "problem" with 4E, so to speak, is a carry-over from 3E, but magnified further - and it is that system mastery is required to really bring out the fullness of the game experience. This was true of 3E with regards to character optimization, but in 4E it is more relevant to not only "tactical optimization" but immersion. Its just too hard to get to the point where the rules are transparent. Actually, this inspires me to start a related thread - a hypothesis that I'd like to further explore. I'll post a link momentarily. [/QUOTE]
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Why the claim of combat and class balance between the classes is mainly a forum issue. (In my opinion)
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