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Community
General Tabletop Discussion
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Why the claim of combat and class balance between the classes is mainly a forum issue. (In my opinion)
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6241256" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>I've frequently posted over the past few years that one of the bigger flaws in 4e is the lack of integration between combat and non-combat resolution. (It's not hopeless - there are some gestures in the DMG2 discussion of skill challenges, for instance; and some modules - an early one like Heathen, and a later one like The Cairn of the Winter King - try to bridge the gap via allowing hit point damage via social skills.)</p><p></p><p>But I don't see that that has any particular connection to balance. Nor to (say) gamism vs narrativism: for instance, two well-known narrativist games - HeroQuest revised and Burning Wheel - both have rules that forbid the use of social skills to resist physical attacks (ie once the punch is thrown you can't try and talk them down). Whereas, as best I understand, FATE has no such rule.</p><p></p><p>I don't know if it's typical or not. There are plenty of regular posters on this board now, and over the past few years, who seem to play 4e in much the same way.</p><p></p><p>There's a good chance I take the game more seriously than many other players - given my ENworld postcount I'm obviously fairly far into the hardcore of RPGers! - but that's equally true of those posters playing 3E or OSR games.</p><p></p><p>This may be true. I'm not sure it tells us how 4e is meant to be played, though - it's not impossible that those who dislike the game have a better handle on it than those who like it, but it's certainly not obvious to me that they do.</p><p></p><p>I also don't accept that playing characters as token is particularly foreign to D&D play. How else is a module like Tomb of Horrors meant to be played, for instance?</p><p></p><p>See, for me this is highly contentious. AD&D 2nd ed didn't have social skills at all, at least in the books that were in use when I was playing the game. And the use of CHA as a catch-all social ability was very different from either the 3E approach (with Diplomacy skill) or the 4e approach (with skill challenges).</p><p></p><p>More generally, it doesn't seem to me that there is anything innate in the idea that combat should be resolved mathematically via dice rolls, but social interaction via free negotiation and GM fiat. But to the extent that D&D is designed to make combat a privileged site of player control over the fiction - because the one place where the mechanics put definite control into player hands - there will be pressure for mechanical balance in the combat capabilities of various character builds.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 6241256, member: 42582"] I've frequently posted over the past few years that one of the bigger flaws in 4e is the lack of integration between combat and non-combat resolution. (It's not hopeless - there are some gestures in the DMG2 discussion of skill challenges, for instance; and some modules - an early one like Heathen, and a later one like The Cairn of the Winter King - try to bridge the gap via allowing hit point damage via social skills.) But I don't see that that has any particular connection to balance. Nor to (say) gamism vs narrativism: for instance, two well-known narrativist games - HeroQuest revised and Burning Wheel - both have rules that forbid the use of social skills to resist physical attacks (ie once the punch is thrown you can't try and talk them down). Whereas, as best I understand, FATE has no such rule. I don't know if it's typical or not. There are plenty of regular posters on this board now, and over the past few years, who seem to play 4e in much the same way. There's a good chance I take the game more seriously than many other players - given my ENworld postcount I'm obviously fairly far into the hardcore of RPGers! - but that's equally true of those posters playing 3E or OSR games. This may be true. I'm not sure it tells us how 4e is meant to be played, though - it's not impossible that those who dislike the game have a better handle on it than those who like it, but it's certainly not obvious to me that they do. I also don't accept that playing characters as token is particularly foreign to D&D play. How else is a module like Tomb of Horrors meant to be played, for instance? See, for me this is highly contentious. AD&D 2nd ed didn't have social skills at all, at least in the books that were in use when I was playing the game. And the use of CHA as a catch-all social ability was very different from either the 3E approach (with Diplomacy skill) or the 4e approach (with skill challenges). More generally, it doesn't seem to me that there is anything innate in the idea that combat should be resolved mathematically via dice rolls, but social interaction via free negotiation and GM fiat. But to the extent that D&D is designed to make combat a privileged site of player control over the fiction - because the one place where the mechanics put definite control into player hands - there will be pressure for mechanical balance in the combat capabilities of various character builds. [/QUOTE]
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Why the claim of combat and class balance between the classes is mainly a forum issue. (In my opinion)
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