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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6241862" data-attributes="member: 87792">From memory that is the actual rule in 4e.It's not about winning.&nbsp; It's about winning with flair, style, and elegance most of the time.&nbsp; Using a finite set of rules to make the monsters look ridiculous.Indeed.&nbsp; It's more along the lines of a Sudoku challenge.&nbsp; I know that when I start a Sudoku I'm going to succeed almost inevitably.&nbsp; But not how fast.Fortunately for the industry the Forge has succeeded beyond the wildest dreams of its founders.&nbsp; The most popular non-D&amp;D game on the market right now (Fate) comes from deep within the Forge.&nbsp; The Forge did a lot of good and some harm.&nbsp; The harm is being buried with it.&nbsp; The good (Fate, Fiasco, Burning Wheel, Apocalypse World -&gt; Dungeon World etc.) is thriving.The Forge came originally from World of Darkness players who found the Storyteller system not fit for purpose.&nbsp; Now I don't know if you remember the average WoD opinion of D&amp;D in the 90s.&nbsp; But I do.&nbsp; It wasn't polite.&nbsp; The Forge's entire approach to gamism was telling WoD players that &quot;What D&amp;D players do is actually pretty cool.&nbsp; It's not what we want to do - but that doesn't stop oD&amp;D and 1e from being cool at what it does.&nbsp; This town's big enough for all of us.&quot;&nbsp; Remember that WoD was putting notes in their books about &quot;Rollplaying not Roleplaying&quot;.The games I've cited above came out of the same group that was the Forge.&nbsp; Edwards himself is notable for creating The Forge out of which the Indy RPG movement grew.&nbsp; He himself was not one prone to polite measures or half measures - and closed the Forge when the problems it was creating were getting in the way.&nbsp; Meanwhile the Indy Games movement thrived (aided by the collapse of the nWoD and later the D&amp;D edition war).And, for the record, Edwards was talking about WoD players there far more than D&amp;D players.&nbsp; And you'll note was almost ignored in the discussion itself - and the marginalia was not positive.Are you trying to create cross-board drama?&nbsp; Especially linking to that site?&nbsp; If you don't want to discuss the topic, don't.From what I've read, I think Heinsoo understood what 4e was good at.&nbsp; I think he was in a small minority.QFT.&nbsp; All of it.And fortunately the games that enable them are no longer being produced in great numbers.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 6241862, member: 87792"] From memory that is the actual rule in 4e. It's not about winning. It's about winning with flair, style, and elegance most of the time. Using a finite set of rules to make the monsters look ridiculous. Indeed. It's more along the lines of a Sudoku challenge. I know that when I start a Sudoku I'm going to succeed almost inevitably. But not how fast. Fortunately for the industry the Forge has succeeded beyond the wildest dreams of its founders. The most popular non-D&D game on the market right now (Fate) comes from deep within the Forge. The Forge did a lot of good and some harm. The harm is being buried with it. The good (Fate, Fiasco, Burning Wheel, Apocalypse World -> Dungeon World etc.) is thriving. The Forge came originally from [I]World of Darkness[/I] players who found the Storyteller system not fit for purpose. Now I don't know if you remember the average WoD opinion of D&D in the 90s. But I do. It wasn't polite. The Forge's entire approach to gamism was telling WoD players that "What D&D players do is actually pretty cool. It's not what we want to do - but that doesn't stop oD&D and 1e from being cool at what it does. This town's big enough for all of us." Remember that WoD was putting notes in their books about "Rollplaying not Roleplaying". The games I've cited above came out of the same group that was the Forge. Edwards himself is notable for creating The Forge out of which the Indy RPG movement grew. He himself was not one prone to polite measures or half measures - and closed the Forge when the problems it was creating were getting in the way. Meanwhile the Indy Games movement thrived (aided by the collapse of the nWoD and later the D&D edition war). And, for the record, Edwards was talking about WoD players there far more than D&D players. And you'll note was almost ignored in the discussion itself - and the marginalia was not positive. Are you trying to create cross-board drama? Especially linking to [I]that[/I] site? If you don't want to discuss the topic, don't. From what I've read, I think [I]Heinsoo[/I] understood what 4e was good at. I think he was in a small minority. QFT. All of it. And fortunately the games that enable them are no longer being produced in great numbers. [/QUOTE]

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