Reply to thread

Message

<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6242140" data-attributes="member: 87792">If you're talking about the Brain Damage comment that wasn't linked by Forge advocates.Forge 101:&nbsp; The forge was, as the name suggests, about making and publishing independent role playing games.&nbsp;&nbsp; It was about forging them - as in a Smith's Forge.&nbsp; That is why it was&nbsp; called The Forge and Indie-RPGs.com rather than e.g.&nbsp; &quot;Roleplaying-Theory.com&quot;.&nbsp; As for Fate being popular in the small pond&nbsp; of indie-games, 20,000 sales of The Dresden Files isn't small change in&nbsp; anyone's book.&nbsp; As I mentioned, Fate is credibly the most popular&nbsp; current RPG that isn't a flavour of D&amp;D. And that includes Numenera,&nbsp; 13th Age, and Exalted.&nbsp; (We've actual head to head data from&nbsp; the Fate Core, 13th Age, and Numenera kickstarters of course - Fate&nbsp; doubled the sales of the other two).The gap between the RPG camp&nbsp; and the Storygame camp - indeed the idea that there is an actual gap -&nbsp; seems in my experience to be a claim of the RPGSite and its most&nbsp; influential member the RPGPundit&nbsp; (<a href="https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=rpgpundit+swine&amp;ie=utf-8&amp;oe=utf-8&amp;rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&amp;client=firefox-a&amp;gws_rd=cr&amp;ei=oDDNUsKnJYWB7Qblq4DQAQ#q=site:therpgpundit.blogspot.com+swine&amp;rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&amp;safe=active" target="_blank">who&nbsp; makes Edwards seem polite and reasonable</a>).&nbsp; Storygames are almost&nbsp; invariably one subset of role-playing games.&nbsp; (And Monsterhearts, which&nbsp; bills itself a Storygame is one of the purest role-playing games I&nbsp; know).Fiasco has passed the 10,000 sales mark.&nbsp; I&nbsp; don't know what Pathfinder APs are selling these days - but 10,000&nbsp; sales isn't small change in the RPG market.&nbsp; (Hell, one WotC product was&nbsp; pegged back to a few hundred sales according to the 2012 State of the&nbsp; Mongoose).Fiasco is&nbsp; one of the games you can credibly call not an RPG.&nbsp; Yet, 10,000 sales.&nbsp;&nbsp; Your case is disproven by counterexample.&nbsp; Few games are breakouts.&nbsp;&nbsp; This much is agreed.&nbsp; But given that Fiasco's going strong your&nbsp; assertion is plainly false.&nbsp; (It might be harder to have a breakout game&nbsp; that is not like D&amp;D - but it's definitely happened).Ultimately&nbsp; the issue is that for both the indie RPG market and the OSR market&nbsp; alike you are only starting with a target sales number in three figures&nbsp; even if you sell to most of the community.&nbsp; (Adventurer Conqueror King&nbsp; made fewer than 250 sales on Kickstarter, Jason Morningstar's Durance&nbsp; under 650, and Far West - once the Kickstarter star - 720).&nbsp; You're only&nbsp; getting anywhere if you break out past the small community - and few&nbsp; games do that. The obvious market to break out to (as Dungeon World did)&nbsp; is D&amp;D players.As far as I know the only place that claims that Edwards currently&nbsp; has any power in the industry is the RPGSite.&nbsp; He said some interesting&nbsp; things from 1999 to 2004 and was full of enough energy to develop the&nbsp; Forge (IIRC he didn't even found it) - for the publication of role&nbsp; playing games.&nbsp; Those that claim he has been historically important on the other hand include the Diana Jones award committee.An Indie publisher setting themselves up through The Forge was the whole purpose of the Forge.&nbsp;&nbsp; Possibly &quot;Deep within the Forge&quot; was overstating the case - but it was&nbsp; certainly through the Forge using it for its intended purpose.&nbsp; Forge&nbsp; Theory was designed to help with new games - and point out why the games&nbsp; at the end of the 90s were not fit for purpose and we needed better&nbsp; games.&nbsp; If you look at&nbsp; <a href="http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forge/index.php" target="_blank">The Forge&nbsp; Website</a>, the top three forums are &quot;Actual Play&quot;, &quot;Game&nbsp; Development&quot;, and &quot;Independent Publishing&quot;.&nbsp; Not &quot;Forge Theory&quot;, &quot;GNS&quot;,&nbsp; or anything of the sort.&nbsp; The sole purpose of the theory was to help&nbsp; with game development.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 6242140, member: 87792"] If you're talking about the Brain Damage comment that wasn't linked by Forge advocates. Forge 101: The forge was, as the name suggests, about [I]making and publishing independent role playing games[/I]. It was about forging them - as in a Smith's Forge. That is why it was called The Forge and Indie-RPGs.com rather than e.g. "Roleplaying-Theory.com". As for Fate being popular in the small pond of indie-games, 20,000 sales of The Dresden Files isn't small change in anyone's book. As I mentioned, Fate is credibly the most popular current RPG that isn't a flavour of D&D. And that includes Numenera, 13th Age, and Exalted. (We've actual head to head data from the Fate Core, 13th Age, and Numenera kickstarters of course - Fate doubled the sales of the other two). The gap between the RPG camp and the Storygame camp - indeed the idea that there is an actual gap - seems in my experience to be a claim of the RPGSite and its most influential member the RPGPundit ([url=https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=rpgpundit+swine&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&gws_rd=cr&ei=oDDNUsKnJYWB7Qblq4DQAQ#q=site:therpgpundit.blogspot.com+swine&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&safe=active]who makes Edwards seem polite and reasonable[/url]). Storygames are almost invariably one subset of role-playing games. (And Monsterhearts, which bills itself a Storygame is one of the purest role-playing games I know). Fiasco has passed the 10,000 sales mark. I don't know what Pathfinder APs are selling these days - but 10,000 sales isn't small change in the RPG market. (Hell, one WotC product was pegged back to a few hundred sales according to the 2012 State of the Mongoose). Fiasco is one of the games you can credibly call not an RPG. Yet, 10,000 sales. Your case is disproven by counterexample. Few games are breakouts. This much is agreed. But given that Fiasco's going strong your assertion is plainly false. (It might be harder to have a breakout game that is not like D&D - but it's definitely happened). Ultimately the issue is that for both the indie RPG market and the OSR market alike you are only starting with a target sales number in three figures even if you sell to most of the community. (Adventurer Conqueror King made fewer than 250 sales on Kickstarter, Jason Morningstar's Durance under 650, and Far West - once the Kickstarter star - 720). You're only getting anywhere if you break out past the small community - and few games do that. The obvious market to break out to (as Dungeon World did) is D&D players. As far as I know the only place that claims that Edwards currently has any power in the industry is the RPGSite. He said some interesting things from 1999 to 2004 and was full of enough energy to develop the Forge (IIRC he didn't even found it) - for the publication of role playing games. Those that claim he has been [I]historically important[/I] on the other hand include the Diana Jones award committee. An Indie publisher setting themselves up through The Forge [I]was the whole purpose of the Forge[/I]. Possibly "Deep within the Forge" was overstating the case - but it was certainly through the Forge using it for its intended purpose. Forge Theory was designed to help with new games - and point out why the games at the end of the 90s were not fit for purpose and we needed better games. If you look at [url=http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forge/index.php]The Forge Website[/url], the top three forums are "Actual Play", "Game Development", and "Independent Publishing". Not "Forge Theory", "GNS", or anything of the sort. The sole purpose of the theory was to help with game development. [/QUOTE]

Verification