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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6242741" data-attributes="member: 87792">Gagh!&nbsp; That's ... annoying.Out of curiosity, what's the point of having a ruleset if you don't actually use it?&nbsp; If the game is talking about squares, feet, or inches, it's talking about map and minis.&nbsp; So your players want you to know all the rules but not use them.Also it sounds as if you are fighting your ruleset every step of the way.&nbsp; Try a game like 13th Age - which is intended to be run fast and light, and without a map.&nbsp; Even removing the trappings of a map.&nbsp; And that, I think, is a big part of the problem.&nbsp; That the rules rely on certain information that you don't give them and they get annoyed when the lack of information doesn't match what they think is there.Different rules fit different games.&nbsp; And if you are fighting the rules every step of the way you are normally fighting the players' understanding of the world.&nbsp; Although the intent isn't there the effect is that you are taking away the players' knowledge of the world in the same way you would if you lied to them.&nbsp; At that point not trusting the DM is understandable.&nbsp; Find a ruleset that fits what you want to play and you won't cause these issues.&nbsp; (And I'm glad that from what you've said D&amp;D Next seems to be one such set of rules for you).Conmen, tricking monsters out of their gold and directing enemy tribes at each other.&nbsp; Warlords, building private armies.My rule of thumb is I'll spot the players one adventure with a tailored hook to their PC to get them to start adventuring.&nbsp; If they are playing antisocial loners and want to wander off after that I let them.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 6242741, member: 87792"] Gagh! That's ... annoying. Out of curiosity, what's the point of having a ruleset if you don't actually use it? If the game is talking about squares, feet, or inches, it's talking about map and minis. So your players want you to know all the rules but not use them. Also it sounds as if you are fighting your ruleset every step of the way. Try a game like 13th Age - which is intended to be run fast and light, and without a map. Even removing the trappings of a map. And that, I think, is a big part of the problem. That the rules rely on certain information that you don't give them and they get annoyed when the lack of information doesn't match what they think is there. Different rules fit different games. And if you are fighting the rules every step of the way [I]you are normally fighting the players' understanding of the world.[/I] Although the intent isn't there the effect is that you are taking away the players' knowledge of the world in the same way you would if you lied to them. At that point not trusting the DM is understandable. Find a ruleset that fits what you want to play and you won't cause these issues. (And I'm glad that from what you've said D&D Next seems to be one such set of rules for you). Conmen, tricking monsters out of their gold and directing enemy tribes at each other. Warlords, building private armies. My rule of thumb is I'll spot the players [I]one[/I] adventure with a tailored hook to their PC to get them to start adventuring. If they are playing antisocial loners and want to wander off after that I let them. [/QUOTE]

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