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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ratskinner" data-source="post: 6242998" data-attributes="member: 6688937">For better or worse, by the time DMG2 was released, the 4e ship had already sailed for me and my disintegrating group(s), and I don't think I'm nearly alone in that. My son and his friends have picked it up, with a different kid DMing...they play it (from what I've seen) in a very competitive tactical gamist mode. I'm not really sure... can anyone comment on what advice vis-a-vis this type of thing is present in the later Essentials stuff?Honestly, IMO, I don't find 4e to be a very good High Concept Simulator for the things you mention at the story/plot level. It does get across, quite annoyingly and forcibly IMO, the superhero/action-movie physics at a smaller tactical level. However, I just don't see much in 4e that does anything on a grander scale other than get out of the way a bit better than perhaps all the previous editions. I think it would have had one big impact, namely it would have caused groups to abandon the Skill Challenge mechanics even more quickly than they did. I say that because that would be such a reversal of D&D's inheritance from its gamist past where XP are a reward for success. I can't say I would consider that universally applicable. 4e play is pretty thin on the ground around here. I would also suspect that an even higher percentage of the audience would have rejected 4e out of hand for that reason...because that would make the game obviously a pile of <Forge-related pejorative>.You may recall that the release-time skill challenge mechanics had some <a href="http://www.highprogrammer.com/alan/gaming/dnd/4e/skill-challenge-broken.html" target="_blank">math issues</a> that made failure a little more likely. I know that my group jumped on 4e as soon as it came out. I was very keen on the SC idea, but I don't think my players understood it very well...and then we got beaten up by it several times. IIRC, one of my players described our second session as a "carnival of failure" another conveyed his feelings after a botched tracking/interrogation challenge with a captive kobold with "Worst. Party. Ever." I very quickly backed away from Skill Challenges, and went back to stakes-setting and checks ad-hoc as I had for 3e. I know of at least two other DMs who did the same (at least as far as dropping Skill Challenges). If my experiences and <a href="http://dmingwithcharisma.com/2013/01/skill-challenges-or-they-wasted-a-perfectly-good-mechanic/" target="_blank">this guy</a>'s are any judge, whatever came out in DMG2 was too late to help most groups.As for your two points above...I obviously can't really say. However, as Imaro and innerdude have commented above. Really, the presentation in the first round of printed books does a good job of hiding any of it non-gamist strengths. The Skill Challenge fiasco is only a minor part of why 4e strikes people that way. I doubt that you suggested tweak would do much to change it.I'm a bit rushed right now, so I may have more to say on this later upon further consideration.</blockquote>

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