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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6246283" data-attributes="member: 87792">Monte Haul hasn't made it as a term into 4e because it was a problem&nbsp; based round a very specific playstyle and hasn't truly been relevant to&nbsp; most groups for a long time.&nbsp; 4e just put the final nails in the coffin.In&nbsp; a lot of very old D&amp;D groups you were expected to take your&nbsp; character from game to game with different people GMing different&nbsp; games.&nbsp; And magic items are power.&nbsp; For games like this, if one DM is&nbsp; giving out ten times the loot everyone else is then PCs who've been used&nbsp; in games with that DM have a vast advantage over those who haven't -&nbsp; and enough to disrupt every other DMs game.&nbsp; This is why Monte Haul DMs&nbsp; were so reviled - they were seriously disrupting games where they&nbsp; weren't even present, which makes them a step worse even than Kender and&nbsp; direct jerks at the table.&nbsp; The dislike of Monte Haul DMs that&nbsp; continued into 2e and even 3e was a legacy issue - people knew they were&nbsp; bad even if the reason they were really bad for a universe was no&nbsp; longer pressing.Indeed. But in order to be&nbsp; able to do this effectively I need to be able to write scraps of the&nbsp; setting even after character creation - there are things I'd expect to know.&nbsp; And if I expect to know them I need to be able to establish rather than have to ask the GM.Last&nbsp; time we checked, there were about half a dozen powers in the whole of&nbsp; 4e that were remotely like CAGI (and one of them was Warrior's Urging&nbsp; a.k.a. Improved CAGI).&nbsp; Using such a rare power even if it is a&nbsp; poster-child is not a good argument.Fine.&nbsp;&nbsp; Ban it.&nbsp; Also ban Warrior's Urging (Fighter 23), Provoke Overextension&nbsp; (Warlord 7), Tide of Blood (I think) (Rogue 15), and Rearrange the&nbsp; Battlefield (I think) (Warlord 16?).&nbsp; There may be one or two more.&nbsp; But&nbsp; beyond that you're done.&nbsp; There are almost no other powers you&nbsp; need to ban.&nbsp; If the entire argument boils down to &quot;There are half a&nbsp; dozen very easily identifiable powers in the whole of 4e that cause this&nbsp; problem I don't like&quot;, as it does, the issue you and many others spend&nbsp; kilobytes of typing on is trivial.&nbsp; 4e can survive the loss of six&nbsp; powers.&nbsp; Hell, it can probably survive the loss of six hundred without&nbsp; causing serious problems.&nbsp; And I don't think I've run more than about&nbsp; two campaigns where I haven't banned things on thematic grounds.And&nbsp; I find that without some way of being able to direct some of what&nbsp; happens next I cannot immerse in the mind of a competent character.&nbsp; One&nbsp; who can look at a room and spot a dozen different opportunities that&nbsp; the average person wouldn't because they don't have that level of&nbsp; expertise.Then your opinion is objectively wrong.&nbsp; There are things 4e can do&nbsp; for player empowerment and shared fiction building that Dungeon World&nbsp; doesn't.&nbsp; Whether they are worth doing is a different story entirely -&nbsp; if we look at <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learning_styles" target="_blank">learning styles</a>,&nbsp; I'm a kinaesthetic learner.&nbsp; 4e with its narrative language including&nbsp; moves, shifts, pulls, pushes, and slides is in this respect vastly&nbsp; superior in terms of shared fiction building and showing me how&nbsp; characters move to any other RPG I am aware of.&nbsp; 4e also with its AEDU&nbsp; structure does not have the problem common to all other editions of&nbsp; D&amp;D where fighters are unfeeling, untiring robots who are exactly as&nbsp; effective offensively at all points of a fight and don't take a short&nbsp; break to catch their breath or pace themselves and hold back for&nbsp; desperate situations.&nbsp; In Dungeon World I have no mechanical way of&nbsp; terrorising PCs by harrying them and not giving them time to take a rest&nbsp; and recover their breath.&nbsp; In 4e as something to do once in a while,&nbsp; harrying PCs gets them very very scared - and desperate to take a breather in the way they should be.Now&nbsp; whether these things are worth doing given the overhead they cost in&nbsp; terms of rules is an open question and all I can say is that tastes&nbsp; vary.&nbsp; Both 4e and Dungeon World are excellent games.&nbsp; But to say&nbsp; there's nothing that one can do better than the other is equally&nbsp; ridiculous both ways even if you restrict it to shared storytelling.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 6246283, member: 87792"] Monte Haul hasn't made it as a term into 4e because it was a problem based round a very specific playstyle and hasn't truly been relevant to most groups for a [I]long[/I] time. 4e just put the final nails in the coffin. In a lot of very old D&D groups you were expected to take your character from game to game with different people GMing different games. And magic items are power. For games like this, if one DM is giving out ten times the loot everyone else is then PCs who've been used in games with that DM have a vast advantage over those who haven't - and enough to disrupt every other DMs game. This is why Monte Haul DMs were so reviled - they were seriously disrupting games where they weren't even present, which makes them a step worse even than Kender and direct jerks at the table. The dislike of Monte Haul DMs that continued into 2e and even 3e was a legacy issue - people knew they were bad even if the reason they were really bad for a universe was no longer pressing. Indeed. But in order to be able to do this effectively I need to be able to write scraps of the setting even after character creation - there are things I'd expect to [I]know[/I]. And if I expect to know them I need to be able to establish rather than have to ask the GM. Last time we checked, there were about half a dozen powers in the whole of 4e that were remotely like CAGI (and one of them was Warrior's Urging a.k.a. Improved CAGI). Using such a rare power even if it is a poster-child is not a good argument. Fine. Ban it. Also ban Warrior's Urging (Fighter 23), Provoke Overextension (Warlord 7), Tide of Blood (I think) (Rogue 15), and Rearrange the Battlefield (I think) (Warlord 16?). There may be one or two more. But beyond that [I]you're done[/I]. There are almost no other powers you need to ban. If the entire argument boils down to "There are half a dozen very easily identifiable powers in the whole of 4e that cause this problem I don't like", as it does, the issue you and many others spend kilobytes of typing on is trivial. 4e can survive the loss of six powers. Hell, it can probably survive the loss of six hundred without causing serious problems. And I don't think I've run more than about two campaigns where I haven't banned things on thematic grounds. And I find that without some way of being able to direct some of what happens next I cannot immerse in the mind of a competent character. One who can look at a room and spot a dozen different opportunities that the average person wouldn't because they don't have that level of expertise. Then your opinion is objectively wrong. There are things 4e can do for player empowerment and shared fiction building that Dungeon World doesn't. Whether they are worth doing is a different story entirely - if we look at [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learning_styles"]learning styles[/URL], I'm a kinaesthetic learner. 4e with its narrative language including moves, shifts, pulls, pushes, and slides is in this respect vastly superior in terms of shared fiction building and showing me how characters move to any other RPG I am aware of. 4e also with its AEDU structure does not have the problem common to all other editions of D&D where fighters are unfeeling, untiring robots who are exactly as effective offensively at all points of a fight and don't take a short break to catch their breath or pace themselves and hold back for desperate situations. In Dungeon World I have no mechanical way of terrorising PCs by harrying them and not giving them time to take a rest and recover their breath. In 4e as something to do once in a while, harrying PCs gets them very [I]very[/I] scared - and desperate to take a breather in the way they should be. Now whether these things are worth doing given the overhead they cost in terms of rules is an open question and all I can say is that tastes vary. Both 4e and Dungeon World are excellent games. But to say there's nothing that one can do better than the other is equally ridiculous both ways even if you restrict it to shared storytelling. [/QUOTE]

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