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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Balesir" data-source="post: 6247894" data-attributes="member: 27160">I'll try to rephrase that, since that's not what I meant by "specific and limited". Immersive play doesn't limit what sorts of situation you can explore, clearly. That is, in fact, a profound part of its draw ("I can imagine myself to be *anything*!").What I meant was that the necessity for the whole group to be on board with the immersionist aim, and the necessity for considerable support from the GM for such play to be sustained, make it a style that is limited to specific groups who specifically set out for that style of play. It's something of a "fragile flower", and that tends to limit its prevalence (and, to some extent, its popularity, I think).Perhaps the main limitation for it is that it requires specific input from the players - a problem a little akin to that of immersionism, funnily enough! When I get a player group that really goes for it, I'll let you know how difficult it is to sustain ;-)As a one-off, it's not that hard. More of a "knack" than a skill, I would say. But then my brain may just "get" it easily, I dunno.No, they're just styles. The Forge word "Agendas" I think fits very well. It's about what the players want to actually be doing while playing the game. And D&D is by no means limited to only one of them.Other have said that you're overreaching, here, and I agree 100%. I played 3e/3.5 for several years (and ran some 3.5), and we did not infer anything like the playstyle you describe from the rulebooks we read.Yeah, I'm wondering why you went with something that has levels and such rather than straight CoC, to be honest. Where you see Classes, Levels, hit points and so on as "unnecessary baggage" with D&D, I see them as the unique selling proposition of the system. If I want a more naturalistic, "human" feeling world with no classes, wounds that work more like they do on real bodies than they do on movie action heroes and world physics that look and feel more like the "real" world, I've got plenty of alternative systems that'll do that. I select D&D for pure escapist action movie fun.Given what I just said, obviously I disagree. Why add to the pack of "sim" games when D&D is the only "escapist action fantasy" option out there that uses the artefacts of class, level and so on all in one package.It's at odds because making an emergent story happen (as opposed to driving the characters through a pre-envisioned story) requires applying pressure to see what emerges. Without metagame communication with the players, this is generally hard - you don't know where to apply that pressure to get the characters to respond in interesting ways. Without such understanding, the events you concoct to produce pressure can seem contrived, irritating and frustrating to the players.Immersive sim generally works best if the pressure is low and the "story" fairly gentle. Plots are developed by dangling hooks and waiting for the players/characters to bite, then run a fairly pre-scripted course of events. Pushing hard for story runs a dire risk of breaking either the characters or the players' immersion.While I have no issues with SoD in general, I don't think its terribly helpful for D&D for a raft of reasons, not all of which can be "fixed". One is that only spellcasters tend to get access to SoD, which gives me believability issues when the world isn't simply run by spellcasters who kill (instantly) any threats to their rule. Another is that we enjoy level 1 to level 20-30 arcs, and those tend to be disrupted by SoD effects. A third is that SoD is generally toxic to dramatic play simply because it's anticlimactic.In a sim game, though, SoD (or similar) can work fine. As an example, HârnMaster combat is such that an unlucky hit could decapitate your character; no comin' back from that one!It's certainly emergent, and I wouldn't rule out ever using SoD for gamist or emergent story games, but it can be anticlimactic and it can leave little room for player influence to make the most of dramatically escalating situations (which I realise is pretty much another way to say the same thing, but I still think it expands the explanation of what I'm trying to express).Oh heck, I'm pretty sure that there are several systems that, for your apparent preferences, would be a much better starting place than D&D (any edition)! Just to think through a few:- Savage Worlds: toolkit-type mechanics light system, maybe with a few features you'd need to remove (metagame mechanics).- RuneQuest: no classes, no levels, variants on hit points that make them more like "meat". The main downside is probably the lack of D&D tropes in terms of spells, monsters and so on - but the latest edition is not tied to Glorantha (as the first two were).- Bushido: very canny mix of limited levels (1-6 only) and 'classes' with skills and naturalistic development. Great for immersion, but the main disadvantage is it's tied to a medieval Japanese setting.- DragonQuest: no relation to Runequest, has a wound/fatigue hit point system, skills by individual weapon/spell/skill group (no classes) and is easy to add D&D classic monsters and so on into (indeed, I did so back in the day - still have the records, if anyone's interested, but they're in an old exercise book...). Main disadvantage - it's OOP.- The Pool: very light, very free-form, almost perfect for immersive play and free on the 'net (just Google it). Main disadvantage probably that no background material exists for it at all.- HârnMaster: no classes, no levels, no hit points, very naturalistic game play (best I've ever experienced) but a bit rules heavy. Rather more gritty than D&D, although the magic can actually be very powerful (and as dangerous to the caster as to the target!). Very good for immersive play with a GM who knows the system; I once played over the 'net and even the fact of typing character dialogue didn't break immersion for at least two of us.Of those, probably DragonQuest and HârnMaster I would see as the best options, but with work to convert "game artifacts" (spells, monsters, etc.) if those are important to you, systems like Traveller or Daredevils (which is a classless derivative of Bushido) would also work.Oh, and Theatrix could work well, too, if you fancied/could psych yourself up to make the leap to diceless (as in "completely randomiser-less") gaming.Practically, I think you're bound to be disappointed because classes, levels, hit points as "dramatic pacing" and such are even more bound as tropes to D&D than Bigby's Hand spells and gelatinous cubes. Personally, I glad of this, since I have - after long resisting it - come to love D&D for just those "nonsensical" elements. I think it's the only game that really does them well, and I now have an edition that I think does them better than any other.Does it really? that's not how I see it. From a naturalistic perspective I think 3e D&D worlds should be populated only by limited numbers of high level characters who eliminate any threats (read: low level characters) as soon as thay appear. The Knights of the Dinner Table may make mockery of PC parties laying waste to towns "because they can, and it's wise to leave no witnesses", but the only thing bothering me is why those towns haven't been wiped out long ago by other classed characters in the world. The life of low level adventurers should arguably be "training dungeons" provided by high level patrons who keep the other high level folk off them while they "grow" into high level folk themselves. The price is that they are beholden to these mentors and likely are magically bound to obey them forever...Systems with no classes, no levels, in some cases no hit points (or "more realistic" hit point variants), no "armour class", no "Vancian" magic and more are pretty common. I mentioned a few above; here are more:Ars MagicaMelee and WizardGURPS(Mega)TravellerShadowrunWorld of DarknessHillfolkArchaeron Games SystemBurning WheelThe Riddle of SteelPendragonAftermath!Fantasy HeroPrince ValiantEarthdawnSkyrealms of Jorune...and those jut the ones I own/have played and so know something of the system. Honestly, if this is what you want, just go get!Noble Knight and DTRPG are your friends <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /></blockquote>

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