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Message: <blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 9481830" data-attributes="member: 6790260">Agreed, but I find people are not giving any benefit of the doubt, thus making their position circular. They have set out to prove that the rules must work this way, and then refuse to ever see the rules as even possibly working some other way.I don't at all see it that way. This is a guaranteed method, with predefined limitations. Anyone attempting to do this without that feat will be either taking a greater risk (e.g., rolling with disadvantage or a penalty), or getting less out of it, or having to accept the good with the bad, etc. Maybe you need multiple hours to really practice your voice, and even then, people get advantage on their opposed roll to know the sound is faked. Nothing in this text says it cannot be done. All it does is set out how it does work for an expert trained in this fashion. Naturally, an untrained rube with a dream is gonna be worse, but that doesn't make it impossible.If and only if they get identical ability, yes. If you use the existing rule as a template for what full training does, you can then extrapolate what untrained might look like. Each table, and possibly each individual instance, will come to slightly different expressions, but they'll all fit into a general shape because they're all riffing off the same source that identifies an upper ceiling that must be clearly avoided.The "Arnesonian" space is not closed off. It is simply closed at one end.The general rule precedes halfling. Halfling provides a special exception, explicitly. This is not an exclusionary rule that somehow is what prevents anyone else from doing what halflings do. Halflings get to do a thing that was already impossible for anyone else.Except that I have already gone on record as saying I don't think that that is true, that I am willing to open negotiation for a magical effect under amenable or interesting conditions—they're just going to always have something more, something the character (and, most times, the player as well) wouldn't like to deal with if they didn't have to. Example: Player A's beloved and devoutly religious (but not magic-using) character Sam has just died. the party has no access to revivify and is far too low level for raise dear, so Sam is just dead. Player B's jaded, cynical, atheist character (also not a spellcaster) Pat, who has slowly, quietly become fond of Sam despite Pat's gruff manner and "I don't need friends" attitude,makes a sincere, heartfelt plea: "If you're really there...if you really care about mortals like us...save Sam. Please. I...I didn't know how much I needed them."There are so many things I can do with this as DM. Perhaps I ask for a roll, perhaps I don't. If I do ask for one, a bad roll might not even mean the request fails....it might instead mean that someone other than Sam's deity has answered the prayer, setting up a juicy conflict for later. Or it might mean that Sam comes back kind of wrong (now undead or partially undead). Or it might mean Sam's soul is now stuck in a custody battle between two deities who both now have some claim. If I don't ask for a roll, that most likely means I'm going to do what Dungeon World does with Defy Danger partial successes: offer "a worse outcome, hard bargain, or ugly choice."Had Pat been a Cleric or had a scroll of revivify, there'd be no need for any of this. Sweet and simple. No fuss, no muss, just instant back in the action (well, sort of, revivify leaves you at 1 HP, IIRC.) Trying to call upon the favor of the gods when you have no training is dangerous and draws all sorts of attention you absolutely do not want to draw. That's why people don't do it, and especially not for minor or trivial things. But many of the gods love a good drama, and little is more dramatic than an answered prayer in one's most desperate hour of need.Even the existence of magic rules does not negate negotiation. It simply sets a ceiling for what can be done, and a floor for what price must be paid.Only if you do it wrong. Divine Intervention is cost-free. Begging the gods for aid in your darkest hour is absolutely not going to be cost-free. That's a cost that may define a campaign!Nope. It is only there if you decide that the existence of a rule makes it impossible to negotiate...which means your argument is circular.</blockquote>

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