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Why the Great Thief Debate Will Always Be With Us
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<blockquote data-quote="M_Natas" data-source="post: 9482125" data-attributes="member: 7025918"><p>Yes. If a feature is requires to do X you can't do X without that feature, unless there are additional rules that allow doing X, too.</p><p>Like for example granting the ability to casting spell- You have the class rules, that Gran that ability, you also have race/Spezies rules and Feats that grants that ability, too.</p><p>But if you have neither feature, you can't do it.</p><p>Having the Actor-Feat means that Mimic Speech is something that can't be done without that feat or another rule that says, that you can do that. For example it is no problem to create a "Mimicborn"-Species, that gets also the ability to mimic speech.</p><p></p><p>But the Moment you have a specific rule, that requires that you have a specific feature to do X, you can't do it X without a rule that specifically allows it.</p><p>A rule doesn't need to be exclusive to be in the Gygaxian Space. What such a rule does is closing if off from the Arnesonian Space. You can still add to the rule in the Gygaxian Space by adding other rules that allow you to do X, but it is closed off to the Arnesonian Space- or the rule becomes senseless (like the actor feat becoming useless if you allow anybody to just mimic speech).</p><p></p><p>No. We can design any rule in a way that locks people put from doing something without a special feature or we can design a rule in a way that doesn't do that.</p><p>There is no must, you can do either and it is fine. You just need to be aware of it when designing a game/rule.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Hrm. No. Picking Locks and the Knock spell are both deep in the Gygaxian Space.</p><p>You can have two rules, that allow to do the same thing.</p><p>Let's stay with this example.</p><p>We have a rule that says in order to be able to pick locks you need thieves tools and proficiency with them. So because of this rule, if you don't have either, you can't do it. It is cut off from the Arnesonian Space. But that doesn't mean, that another rule in the Gygaxian Space couldn't allow that feature, too. A magic item could allow you to pick locks with either proficiency nor needing thieves tools, for example. Or our "mimicborn" could have a trait like "fluid fingers" that allows him to pick locks without thieves tools or something.</p><p>Now, the spell knock - the spell knock is not lock picking, it is an automatically opening of locks. No skill check required. But it is just another specific rule that allows you to open locks.</p><p>That is the main point. If you have a specific rule that says you need it in order to do X, you can't use the general rules that allows everybody to try anything (Arnesonian Space) to do X. You need to stay in the Gygaxian Space and need another rule, that allows X, too.</p><p></p><p>No. You can design spells either way. Spells are just a set of rules and they can be designed either exclusively gygaxian or the can be designed in a way to not close off the use of the Arnesonian Space.</p><p>For example, the Knock spell is well designed in that regard. By itself it doesn't close off the Arnesonian Space (the rules for lock picking do that).</p><p>So let's say, that there are no rules for lockpicking in the game. And now we have the spell "Pick Locks".</p><p>"When you cast this spell, you can attempt to pick a lock. Do a a dexterity check and add your proficiency bonus to do so ..."</p><p>Now, that would be a stupid spell to have, while having also the lockpicking rules, but without having any lock picking rules, the existing of this spell would mean, that the design intent is, that without this spell you can't pick locks (unless another feature like "mimicborn" "liquid hands" allow it).</p><p></p><p>So, to describe the rule in general.</p><p>In a TTRPG game, you you can attempt to do X. The ability to do X is in general in the Arnesonian Space, unless a rule says it is a requirement to use that rule (usually show by the you verbs "can", "must use" and so on) in order to do X. Then doing</p><p>X gets locked out of the Arnesonian Space and only another rule can allow you to do X.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="M_Natas, post: 9482125, member: 7025918"] Yes. If a feature is requires to do X you can't do X without that feature, unless there are additional rules that allow doing X, too. Like for example granting the ability to casting spell- You have the class rules, that Gran that ability, you also have race/Spezies rules and Feats that grants that ability, too. But if you have neither feature, you can't do it. Having the Actor-Feat means that Mimic Speech is something that can't be done without that feat or another rule that says, that you can do that. For example it is no problem to create a "Mimicborn"-Species, that gets also the ability to mimic speech. But the Moment you have a specific rule, that requires that you have a specific feature to do X, you can't do it X without a rule that specifically allows it. A rule doesn't need to be exclusive to be in the Gygaxian Space. What such a rule does is closing if off from the Arnesonian Space. You can still add to the rule in the Gygaxian Space by adding other rules that allow you to do X, but it is closed off to the Arnesonian Space- or the rule becomes senseless (like the actor feat becoming useless if you allow anybody to just mimic speech). No. We can design any rule in a way that locks people put from doing something without a special feature or we can design a rule in a way that doesn't do that. There is no must, you can do either and it is fine. You just need to be aware of it when designing a game/rule. Hrm. No. Picking Locks and the Knock spell are both deep in the Gygaxian Space. You can have two rules, that allow to do the same thing. Let's stay with this example. We have a rule that says in order to be able to pick locks you need thieves tools and proficiency with them. So because of this rule, if you don't have either, you can't do it. It is cut off from the Arnesonian Space. But that doesn't mean, that another rule in the Gygaxian Space couldn't allow that feature, too. A magic item could allow you to pick locks with either proficiency nor needing thieves tools, for example. Or our "mimicborn" could have a trait like "fluid fingers" that allows him to pick locks without thieves tools or something. Now, the spell knock - the spell knock is not lock picking, it is an automatically opening of locks. No skill check required. But it is just another specific rule that allows you to open locks. That is the main point. If you have a specific rule that says you need it in order to do X, you can't use the general rules that allows everybody to try anything (Arnesonian Space) to do X. You need to stay in the Gygaxian Space and need another rule, that allows X, too. No. You can design spells either way. Spells are just a set of rules and they can be designed either exclusively gygaxian or the can be designed in a way to not close off the use of the Arnesonian Space. For example, the Knock spell is well designed in that regard. By itself it doesn't close off the Arnesonian Space (the rules for lock picking do that). So let's say, that there are no rules for lockpicking in the game. And now we have the spell "Pick Locks". "When you cast this spell, you can attempt to pick a lock. Do a a dexterity check and add your proficiency bonus to do so ..." Now, that would be a stupid spell to have, while having also the lockpicking rules, but without having any lock picking rules, the existing of this spell would mean, that the design intent is, that without this spell you can't pick locks (unless another feature like "mimicborn" "liquid hands" allow it). So, to describe the rule in general. In a TTRPG game, you you can attempt to do X. The ability to do X is in general in the Arnesonian Space, unless a rule says it is a requirement to use that rule (usually show by the you verbs "can", "must use" and so on) in order to do X. Then doing X gets locked out of the Arnesonian Space and only another rule can allow you to do X. [/QUOTE]
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