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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DrunkonDuty" data-source="post: 7586293" data-attributes="member: 54364">I like complexity when it adds something that I enjoy to the game. And since I'm not (very) silly I avoid those games that add complexity that I don't get enjoyment out of.I prefer complexity when it is modular, that is when complexity comes as sub-systems that can be added or removed from play as desired. This allows players to engage with it as they see fit.For example: I liked the old 3.X Undead Turning subsystem. Was it it elegant? God no. It took time and effort to check up tables every time it got used. It's results were either too effective or not effective at all.In 3rd Ed. Legend of the 5 Rings I really enjoy the dueling mechanic. Is it simple?  No. No it is not. It is complicated, it requires learning a whole new sub-system.  But I would say the outcomes were worth the complexity.What I like about them is that they are both mini-games that give me, as a player, something. I think the L5R dueling is the better mini-game of the two. The stakes rise the longer the duel goes on and players have a fair amount of agency in deciding how things will turn out. (Do I spend Void now to assess my opponent's stats? Save it to increase my chances of focusing successfully, and thereby have more chance of getting the first shot in? Or use it to do more damage come the actual attack roll?) It gives good drama in return for the complexity. Also, genre appropriate drama: Two samurai in the misty dawn, standing a sword's length apart, staring at one another, waiting for the perfect moment to strike. Gold.The 3.X turning sub-system gives comedy. It's one of those old, gonzo sort of game constructs, that I am generally against, in which random crap happens. (I have no idea why I like the gonzo style here but hate in most other places. I just do.)Obviously not everyone will agree with me on these two sub-systems. But if they are modular sub-systems then most players don't need to worry about understanding them. And if I like them then I'm going to end up with a bit of system mastery over them and be able to get through the mechanics of it quickly, so I won't bore the other players too much.When complexity gets in the way for me is when it's a part of the core mechanics. When you must engage with a complicated mechanic to be playing the game at all then I feel it is bad complexity. Exalted comes to mind here. (Of course what is complicated to one person is not necessarily complicated to another. But if a game wants wide appeal it has to consider a wide range of people and they should aim to simpler if they want broad appeal. Also, Exalted is very complicated.)This is why I like HERO system. At it's core conflict is resolved with: Roll to hit, roll damage, subtract defenses from damage, apply result.Want to punch someone? Roll to hit, roll damage, subtract defenses from damage, apply result.Want to Mind Control someone? Roll to hit, roll damage, subtract defenses from damage, apply result.Turn someone into a newt? Roll to hit, roll damage, subtract defenses from damage, apply result.Drain their strength? Roll to hit, roll damage, subtract defenses from damage, apply result.Grapple someone?  Roll to hit. (Damage is optional.)Of course there are distinct sub-systems for some things.An attack that blinds the target, like a flash-bang, has the same basic method BUT you count the damage dice differently. Killing attacks, that is, attacks in which you are using lethal weapons, also count the damage dice differently. (This seems odd until you remember the system came out of super heroes genre, where attacking to kill was the unusual choice.)And famously, character design. If you're doing up a super hero, you better like character design. (The equivalent of a level 1 DnD character is actually pretty easy.)But these are modular elements and can be ignored, or minimised in one's experience of the game.D20 has, at its core, a very simple mechanic. Roll and add your bonus. (If it's an attack and you hit, roll damage.) Higherer is betterer. I mean, how good is that?Yes, D20 has a lot more complexity that can be added. Character design isn't simple. The magic system isn't simple (and in many places just downright screwed up.) But again, these are modular sub-systems and can be avoided by players who want to avoid them.So no, I don't think all complexity is bad. Hell, even Exalted is perfectly fine if that's what you want.The real trick is getting your group to all agree on a given level of complexity that they want for their game. Now that's complicated.I have just noticed (while writing up this post) that 4th ed L5R has simplified the duel mechanic. Gone are the rising stakes of each player focusing in turn, with increasing target numbers, waiting to see who will be the first to blink. <sad face> It's now a three turn, one roll per character per turn, thing. Much less drama, in my opinion. But it is simpler.</blockquote>

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