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Message: <blockquote data-quote="teach" data-source="post: 5346002" data-attributes="member: 45322">Maybe this is nostalgia, but I've been thinking about this lately, and I really have begun to believe that the modern D&D variants, Pathfinder and 4E, just won't attract the new players that people want them to attract.  Here's why:The default character rules are just too complicated.  First look at the character sheets.   They are likely 2 pages, at least (and in 4E case, sometimes a lot longer).  There can be some very esoteric abbreviations or words placed on the page, that a new player must walked through. It takes a long time to explain each power, stat, etc etc etc.  It is unclear, when you sit down to look at a character sheet, what that character is good at.  Both systems do a ton to make a DM's job easier, but for players the game remains a very complex system, both in character creation and and in game play, particularly in the advent of miniatures.  Don't get me wrong, I don't think I'd want a game where the character creation was simple, but I think new players need a character system that is much easier than the offerings currently.  Thinking back to my first time playing, what was on my character sheet?  There was a name, a race, a class, an alignment, six basic stats, my ac, the number I needed to roll to hit something and some items.  These things are either pretty self explanatory, or take a minimum amount of time to explain them.  Class write ups were a page or 2, and seemed to be mostly fluff.  There were plenty of additional rules, that could be added to make the game much more complex, but at it's basic, it was a pretty simple process to create, and understand a character sheet. Sure, back then, there was a lot more pressure put on the DM to adjudicate the rules than in Modern Variants, but at the same time, that's fine, because it means only one person at the table has to be a master of the rules.  So, I know people think the new 4E Red Box and the Intro Box Paizo has planned will bring in new players, but I really don't see them doing that.  Instead, you must have a Basic version of your game that is a complete game, not just the first couple of levels.  There needs to be a way to build a character for Red Box and Pathfinder where the character is suitably interesting but doesn't have much more to it than what Old School D&D did, while still keeping with the flavor of the rules of that system.  I know essentials was that attempt, but honestly, I don't know if it's simple enough.  If I plop down a character sheet in front of a new player, would they have a pretty good understanding of what their character can do in 5 minutes?  Maybe I'm wrong about what a new player needs, I haven't been a new player in years, and I'm sure 99% of the people on this board are in the same boat, we are likely pretty experienced with RPGs.  But I feel like a lot of people started play with a more basic version of D&D, and added things in to it.  How do you do that right now with 4E and Pathfinder?  They are very complex games to begin with.</blockquote>

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