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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mercurius" data-source="post: 5346346" data-attributes="member: 59082">First of all, as I said the Red Box is more of a taster and learn-how-to-play product and less of a set that you can use to play the game for many game sessions. In other words, it is not the old Red Box, which covered a bunch of levels, not just two. Now its main goal is to teach new people how to play the game; how successful it is I cannot say as I am not new to 4E. But it is absolutely worthless for even a somewhat experienced player.From the Red Box Wizards is leading this hypothetical new gamer to the Essentials line, which is not really a simpler version of 4E but quite simply just a repackaging of 4E. This is where I think WotC didn't go far enough, which would have been to make a simpler, cleaner version of 4E, sort of like how Castles & Crusades is to 3.x.That's pretty much what I was going out with the Basic/Advanced set-up. You can "hide" the Advanced options by simply sticking to the Basic game, which in my version would be comprised of three main box sets (Heroic, Paragon, and Epic) and maybe something like the Rules Compendium. If you want to add in more monsters, you get aMonster Manual or two; if you want more detail for you character creation and classes, pick up a Player's Handbook. But ideally you could play a Basic character right next to an Advanced character, the latter would just be more detailed, more complex. I'm not saying that the system should be simplified, but that a simpler version should be offered.Right, but most kids start with one set and build from there, adding what pieces they want as they want. Actually, many kids start in the way that my cousin started: their cousin (me, in this case) gives them a huge bag full of thousands of random pieces and they are taught by someone or have to teach themselves. This works fine for a certain type of person--often the type that would enjoy Legos (or D&D)--but not for many, and not for some who would enjoy Legos (or D&D) if they had a softer entry point.Huh? When did I say that I prefer a simple game? I didn't.  Actually, I like the complexity level of 4E but I don't think it is for everyone. Again, huh?! Again, I am not saying that A) I prefer simple games, and B) everyone else does as well. Actually, I'm not saying either of those. What I am saying is that 4E, Pathfinder, 3.5, and most editions of D&D are too complex and esoteric for many people to want to even approach, let alone dive into; and I am saying that these games should offere simpler, "Basic" versions, but not at the expense of or instead of their usual, more Advanced forms.It is the best of both worlds, really. Imagine if BECMI and AD&D had been fully compatible. That's what I'm talking about, but making "BECMI" even simpler, and all supplements usable by players of both the Basic and Advanced game.Yes, exactly. I am saying both, not one or the other. All we have right now, even with the Red Box and Essentials, is a complex game with a taster intro set and a variant presentation of the same complex game. Yes, the key is having as simple a game as possible with as many options as possible. They only way I see that as being, to overuse the world, possible is to have Basic and Advanced versions of the same game. Imagine 4E stripped down to basics: No skills, just ability scores. No feats, just a few key class features; no powers except for spell-casting classes. Just core classes. Just those things would make a much simpler, and accessible game. I like the idea of three general levels of complexity to the game: <ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Basic D&D - The core game, comprised of only a few products - Heroic Red Box, Paragon Blue Box, and Black Epic box. Maybe a Rules Compendium that includes the rules from all three for quick reference. Would not require miniatures or a battle grid.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Advanced D&D - This is the default tournament game and the rules under which supplements are written. This includes the usual lineup: Player's Handbook, DMG, Monster Manuals, etc. It is completely compatible with Basic D&D, but can be "layered on."</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Options - This is pick-and-choose, stuff like Weapons of Legacy and Magic of Incarnum. It isn't "Core" like the first two in that it isn't the default. It is, in a sense, different offshoots and possibilities that individual DMs can add to their campaign.</li> </ol>Most people would play "AD&D", although quite a few would play BD&D and many AD&D players would add in Options of their choosing. But it would Basic D&D that you'd see in Target, that would be evergreen in Barnes & Noble, and that would be the gateway for most new players. It is also BD&D that might just have a chance of bringing back some of the "lost flock."The key word, though, is modularity. Play the game as simple or as complex as you want, with whatever crazy variants you want. But make sure a simple version is offered for those who want it.</blockquote>

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