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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 5346430" data-attributes="member: 4937">My current table has 3 players (out of 6) that have never played the game before.And my rules are more complicated than both 4e and Pathfinder (granted, not significantly so).Character sheets?&nbsp; It's a homebrew.&nbsp; I don't really have them.&nbsp; I found a 3e excell character sheet and modified that to serve, but really, 'back in the day' we got by with pencil and paper.Has nothing to do with it.&nbsp; It's very unclear what a 1e character without exceptional stats is good at.&nbsp; That isn't what brings new players into the game.You thing hit points, alignment, wisdom, charisma, and inverted armor class where lower is better are all 'self explanatory' or 'take a minimum amount of time to explain them'?&nbsp; I've been playing nearly 30 years and I still don't think I can explain what a hit point is outside of its roll in game mechanics.&nbsp; But more importantly, 'back in the day' new players weren't even expected to know the rules.&nbsp; 'The rules' were the province of the DM only, more or less, and there were big warnings on books not to let players know the rules.&nbsp; Likewise, my new players still don't know the rules and are still confused over basic things in the game.&nbsp; So what?&nbsp; What else is new?&nbsp; Too much focus on system misses the point here.&nbsp; You don't need to know the rules to play an RPG.Well, there is something I agree with.But not for the reason you do.&nbsp; The original red box that many of us got into the game only had the first 3 levels and it was a complete game.&nbsp; Heck, my current campaign has run 12 sessions already (4-5 hours each) and no one has attained 3rd level.&nbsp; Leveling up is not what RPGs are about, nor is it what makes rules 'complete'.Humility is great.&nbsp; Yeah, you are mostly wrong.&nbsp; What a new players needs isn't rules.&nbsp; That's what a new DM needs.&nbsp; What a new player needs is a DM who is willing to have new players and who provides an entertaining.Same way we did 'back in the day'.&nbsp; We misunderstood things, made mistakes, made things up, played the way we thought was right until we decided something was better, and yes slowly evolved more complex rules or more precisely more complex house rules.&nbsp;&nbsp; System doesn't matter.&nbsp; Good players don't interface primarily with the system.&nbsp; It's actually a flaw that tends to develop in experienced players that they try to interface primarily with the system instead of the game world.&nbsp;&nbsp; New players have the advantage of not knowing the rules, so they just try stuff.&nbsp; And that is the way to play.&nbsp; It's the DMs job to make the rules as invisible as possible.&nbsp;&nbsp; So who cares if the system is complex or not.&nbsp; Understanding of the system will come in do course.&nbsp; The goal of a DM should be to prepare the player in such a way that when system understanding comes, it doesn't get in the way of the player's skill as a role player.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 5346430, member: 4937"] My current table has 3 players (out of 6) that have never played the game before. And my rules are more complicated than both 4e and Pathfinder (granted, not significantly so). Character sheets? It's a homebrew. I don't really have them. I found a 3e excell character sheet and modified that to serve, but really, 'back in the day' we got by with pencil and paper. Has nothing to do with it. It's very unclear what a 1e character without exceptional stats is good at. That isn't what brings new players into the game. You thing hit points, alignment, wisdom, charisma, and inverted armor class where lower is better are all 'self explanatory' or 'take a minimum amount of time to explain them'? I've been playing nearly 30 years and I still don't think I can explain what a hit point is outside of its roll in game mechanics. But more importantly, 'back in the day' new players weren't even expected to know the rules. 'The rules' were the province of the DM only, more or less, and there were big warnings on books not to let players know the rules. Likewise, my new players still don't know the rules and are still confused over basic things in the game. So what? What else is new? Too much focus on system misses the point here. You don't need to know the rules to play an RPG. Well, there is something I agree with. But not for the reason you do. The original red box that many of us got into the game only had the first 3 levels [i]and it was a complete game[/i]. Heck, my current campaign has run 12 sessions already (4-5 hours each) and no one has attained 3rd level. Leveling up is not what RPGs are about, nor is it what makes rules 'complete'. Humility is great. Yeah, you are mostly wrong. What a new players needs isn't rules. That's what a new DM needs. What a new player needs is a DM who is willing to have new players and who provides an entertaining. Same way we did 'back in the day'. We misunderstood things, made mistakes, made things up, played the way we thought was right until we decided something was better, and yes slowly evolved more complex rules or more precisely more complex house rules. System doesn't matter. Good players don't interface primarily with the system. It's actually a flaw that tends to develop in experienced players that they try to interface primarily with the system instead of the game world. New players have the advantage of not knowing the rules, so they just try stuff. And that is the way to play. It's the DMs job to make the rules as [I]invisible[/I] as possible. So who cares if the system is complex or not. Understanding of the system will come in do course. The goal of a DM should be to prepare the player in such a way that when system understanding comes, it doesn't get in the way of the player's skill as a role player. [/QUOTE]

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