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<blockquote data-quote="teach" data-source="post: 5346712" data-attributes="member: 45322">First, I think you are in large part agreeing with me.&nbsp; Maybe you took what I said about character sheets to mean computerized character sheets, but that's not at all what I meant, I meant the sheet of paper that sits in front of you at a table.&nbsp; You say you want the rules to be as invisible as possible.&nbsp; That's what I want too.&nbsp; The current character creation rules of 4E and Pathfinder are filled with all kinds of rules and steps needed to be taken.&nbsp; Many more than the D&amp;D systems in the 80's and 90's.&nbsp; I want a character creation system that gets out of the way of the new player, so that they can create the character they want, and sit down and play.&nbsp; In two months or two years, maybe they'll want to try the more &quot;advanced method&quot;, but i want there to be a basic method.&nbsp; I don't want the DM to modify it for the player.I know when I learned, the DM took care of most of the rules.&nbsp; I told him what I wanted to do, and he told me how I could do it.&nbsp; Now, I wouldn't want to play that way anymore. And that gets to another point.&nbsp; People think I want 4E and Pathfinder Simplified because that's the kind of game I want to play.&nbsp; Nope.&nbsp; I like the complexity.&nbsp; I like the choices.&nbsp; I like fiddling with character creation.&nbsp; But I want that simpler option to be available for all those new players who might be intimidated by the systems as they stand right now.&nbsp; I know there are plenty of players who will just come in at the &quot;advanced&quot; level.&nbsp; That's great!&nbsp; I want you to play D&amp;D too.&nbsp; I don't want to tell people how they have to start playing d&amp;d, I just want them to start playing D&amp;D.&nbsp; And a complete basic version is what I think will get even more players into the game.&nbsp; Having finally seen the Heros of the Fallen Lands Essientials book, I think they might have gotten close to what I was thinking.&nbsp; A single page for the character sheet.&nbsp; Nice big numbers.&nbsp; Skills under the ability score.&nbsp; &nbsp; I could explain that sheet to a new player in 5 minutes.&nbsp; I can't explain the original 4e sheet in 5 minutes, nor the official pathfinder one.&nbsp; I still worry that character creation is more complicated than it needs to be, but I'm happy it's so much simpler than the default 4E rules.&nbsp; I'm going to keep playing my default 4E characters, but I hope essientials allows a lot of new players to play D&amp;D, just like I hope Paizo's intro box does the same.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="teach, post: 5346712, member: 45322"] First, I think you are in large part agreeing with me. Maybe you took what I said about character sheets to mean computerized character sheets, but that's not at all what I meant, I meant the sheet of paper that sits in front of you at a table. You say you want the rules to be as invisible as possible. That's what I want too. The current character creation rules of 4E and Pathfinder are filled with all kinds of rules and steps needed to be taken. Many more than the D&D systems in the 80's and 90's. I want a character creation system that gets out of the way of the new player, so that they can create the character they want, and sit down and play. In two months or two years, maybe they'll want to try the more "advanced method", but i want there to be a basic method. I don't want the DM to modify it for the player. I know when I learned, the DM took care of most of the rules. I told him what I wanted to do, and he told me how I could do it. Now, I wouldn't want to play that way anymore. And that gets to another point. People think I want 4E and Pathfinder Simplified because that's the kind of game I want to play. Nope. I like the complexity. I like the choices. I like fiddling with character creation. But I want that simpler option to be available for all those new players who might be intimidated by the systems as they stand right now. I know there are plenty of players who will just come in at the "advanced" level. That's great! I want you to play D&D too. I don't want to tell people how they have to start playing d&d, I just want them to start playing D&D. And a complete basic version is what I think will get even more players into the game. Having finally seen the Heros of the Fallen Lands Essientials book, I think they might have gotten close to what I was thinking. A single page for the character sheet. Nice big numbers. Skills under the ability score. I could explain that sheet to a new player in 5 minutes. I can't explain the original 4e sheet in 5 minutes, nor the official pathfinder one. I still worry that character creation is more complicated than it needs to be, but I'm happy it's so much simpler than the default 4E rules. I'm going to keep playing my default 4E characters, but I hope essientials allows a lot of new players to play D&D, just like I hope Paizo's intro box does the same. [/QUOTE]

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