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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 5347749" data-attributes="member: 87792">I have a couple of books on my bookshelf, and damn are they complicated.&nbsp; Dense prose, lookup tables all over everywhere, ad hoc die roll modifiers, modifiers for different weapons vs armour type.&nbsp; You name it they got it.&nbsp; Those books?&nbsp; AD&amp;D PHBs.&nbsp;&nbsp;Easier than the Red Box Choose Your Own Adventure?&nbsp;Which edition?&nbsp; And where were your five types of save?&nbsp; Your hide in shadows percentage chance?&nbsp; Your spells?&nbsp; (Which you needed to refer to the PHB for).&nbsp; I could go on...&nbsp;Level 1 character sheet?&nbsp; Bright person?&nbsp; Two minutes of explaination?&nbsp; Sure.&nbsp;&nbsp;Hell, AD&amp;D had a more complicated ruleset than 4e.&nbsp; And when I started we didn't bother with red box or basic.&nbsp; That said, my group refers to autobuild as random on the Character Builder.&nbsp;Were you ever 12?&nbsp; I remember all the munchkinry we got up to at that age.&nbsp; Hell yes, we cared.&nbsp;&nbsp;Agreed.&nbsp; And one major problem with 3e.&nbsp; It's quite hard in 4e to make a badly suboptimal character accidently as long as you are aware that your primary stat should be high*.&nbsp; In AD&amp;D it took either an inept caster (1 spell/day, no armour, low hp, uncreative spell use) or someone optimising (e.g. by writing &quot;Bladesinger&quot; on their character sheet).&nbsp; In 3e it took writing &quot;Monk&quot; on your character sheet.&nbsp; (Or arguably Bard or Fighter and not going for a cheese build).&nbsp;* Anyone who plays an Int 8 wizard deserves what they get IMO.&nbsp; But Int 16 is fine.&nbsp; (And it's entirely possible to make a viable Str 8 Warlord...)</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 5347749, member: 87792"] I have a couple of books on my bookshelf, and [i]damn[/i] are they complicated. Dense prose, lookup tables all over everywhere, ad hoc die roll modifiers, modifiers for different weapons vs armour type. You name it they got it. Those books? AD&D PHBs. Easier than the [I]Red Box Choose Your Own Adventure?[/I] Which edition? And where were your five types of save? Your hide in shadows percentage chance? Your spells? (Which you needed to refer to the PHB for). I could go on... Level 1 character sheet? Bright person? Two minutes of explaination? Sure. Hell, [I]AD&D[/I] had a more complicated ruleset than 4e. And when I started we didn't bother with red box or basic. That said, my group refers to autobuild as random on the Character Builder. Were you ever 12? I remember all the munchkinry we got up to at that age. Hell yes, we cared. Agreed. And one major problem with 3e. It's quite hard in 4e to make a badly suboptimal character accidently as long as you are aware that your primary stat should be high*. In AD&D it took either an inept caster (1 spell/day, no armour, low hp, uncreative spell use) or someone optimising (e.g. by writing "Bladesinger" on their character sheet). In 3e it took writing "Monk" on your character sheet. (Or arguably Bard or Fighter and not going for a cheese build). * Anyone who plays an Int 8 wizard deserves what they get IMO. But Int 16 is fine. (And it's entirely possible to make a viable Str 8 Warlord...) [/QUOTE]

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