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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 5350761" data-attributes="member: 22779">Yah, but yer weird.&nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue&nbsp; &nbsp; :p"&nbsp; data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" />&nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin&nbsp; &nbsp; :D"&nbsp; data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /> <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin&nbsp; &nbsp; :D"&nbsp; data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /></blockquote>One of the main skills in running a good 1e game is knowing what rules *not* to use.&nbsp; Like all of these. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />I suspect the publishers would very much like it if all the tinkers stopped plying their trade and left design-level stuff to the paid professionals.&nbsp; However, we charter members of the tinkerers union aren't about to do any such thing.&nbsp; That said, we're easy enough to please - all we ask for is two things: a) a playable framework, and b) get out of the way.Lanefan[/QUOTE]True, but, you've had things your way for almost thirty years.&nbsp; If you want tinker games, there's a bajillion of them out there for you.&nbsp; Why complain when the ball FINALLY comes over to our side of the court?&nbsp; The problem with the &quot;playable framework&quot; is that it results in games that, for non-tinkers, become nothing but headaches.&nbsp; I don't want a toy, I want a game.&nbsp; I have zero interest in reworking rules.&nbsp; I really don't.&nbsp; Not anymore.&nbsp; There are too many games out there to bother trying to rebuild one to do something that another game does better in the first place.So, let us have this one.&nbsp; Let the non-tinkers have at least one version of D&amp;D that we can play and not have to worry about playing amateur game designer.Yes, you can take that long to make a character in those systems.&nbsp; But, it certainly doesn't have to.&nbsp; It only takes that long in 3e D&amp;D if you start allowing a bunch of material beyond core.&nbsp; Stick to core and a character is built in 30 minutes or so.And, I would say that character creation taking &quot;at least two weeks&quot; is possibly idiosyncratic to your particular table.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 5350761, member: 22779"] Yah, but yer weird. :p :D :D [/quote] One of the main skills in running a good 1e game is knowing what rules *not* to use. Like all of these. :) I suspect the publishers would very much like it if all the tinkers stopped plying their trade and left design-level stuff to the paid professionals. However, we charter members of the tinkerers union aren't about to do any such thing. That said, we're easy enough to please - all we ask for is two things: a) a playable framework, and b) get out of the way. Lanefan[/QUOTE] True, but, you've had things your way for almost thirty years. If you want tinker games, there's a bajillion of them out there for you. Why complain when the ball FINALLY comes over to our side of the court? The problem with the "playable framework" is that it results in games that, for non-tinkers, become nothing but headaches. I don't want a toy, I want a game. I have zero interest in reworking rules. I really don't. Not anymore. There are too many games out there to bother trying to rebuild one to do something that another game does better in the first place. So, let us have this one. Let the non-tinkers have at least one version of D&D that we can play and not have to worry about playing amateur game designer. Yes, you can take that long to make a character in those systems. But, it certainly doesn't have to. It only takes that long in 3e D&D if you start allowing a bunch of material beyond core. Stick to core and a character is built in 30 minutes or so. And, I would say that character creation taking "at least two weeks" is possibly idiosyncratic to your particular table. [/QUOTE]

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