Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Jack7" data-source="post: 4700493" data-attributes="member: 54707">I am not saying that the game does not exist for the sake of the players, it obviously does. (After all, it, as a gaming device must have a pragmatic function. And that function is as a setting for imaginary action of the players through the agency of their character.) I am saying it does not exist for the sake of the characters, as in, it does not exist to service the wishes of the characters.If the characters are supposed to be heroes, then to be brutally honest, heroes don't run around saying, "I want this, or I demand that." Heroes say I'll sacrifice for this and I'll risk for that. And just because they find the world not to their liking, doesn't mean they start demanding it had better become the way they want in order for them to do their job.Now heroes, like anyone, have needs. They need certain things to operate effectively. But when they don't get exactly what they want that is never an obstacle to action. Nor is not getting your wish list in any way reflective of being a hero. But I can see the opposite as being suppressive of heroism. Getting what you want all of the time does not make you heroic, it can make you a lot of things, spoiled, self-absorbed, entitled, dependent, lazy. But I've never seen getting what you want all of the time make anyone heroic. Heroism is the opposite of being given things. It is earning things, and sacrificing things. You cannot encourage the idea of "getting what you want when and how you want it" and the idea of heroism simultaneously. One idea becomes more alluring than the other, or one idea becomes more important than the other.I completely agree. I made this observation (the thread) as a philosophical point about a function of game theory, especially as regards the theory of "heroic fantasy" games. I cannot say how or to what degree the idea of "give it to me" in any given game or world setting may function. (Indeed I have given my players and their characters their wishes, never at their request, but I have given them what they wanted or thought would make them more effective - I am not arguing for denial, I am arguing against entitltlement.) But if you take the idea of give it to me to its natural, logical, and eventual extreme then that leaves almost no room in that world for real heroism to function. Or even appear. As an ideal, and as a mechanic, the idea (give me what I wish because I have done such and such a thing, therefore I deserve the reward I most desire) of obtaining your desires simply because you desire them (through whatever actual means) is not I suspect going to lead to heroism of any kind. Now this is not to say that heroes should not make demands, should not wish for things, should not even say things like, "if only I had a Holy Avenger sword, think of how effective I would have been against that demon and of how many of the lives of the villagers I could have saved."  Or that the DM shouldn't pay attention to such observations. But saying you want something, some device, article, or piece of equipment to make yourself more effective is far different from earning it, and from saying, "next time I go out I want, wish, or deserve this."Anywho, although I haven't had the time to read everyone's response yet, I'm in kind of a rush right now getting the family ready for church. I'll try to respond to other points later on, and thanks for the responses thus far even if I don't agree with ya.I was trying not so much to stimulate an emotional argument, as a philosophical one. But of someone wants to argue from their emotional response feel free to do so. I hope no one will hammer another if their emotions get riled up though.You don't have to worry about me. I don't take things said to me on the internet personally, it's just an argument as far as I'm concerned. But I hope nobody goes plum wild and gets the thread shut down.I wanna see what others think about the connection between entitlement and heroism.See ya, and carry on ladies and gentlemen.</blockquote>

Verification