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<blockquote data-quote="Raven Crowking" data-source="post: 4705796" data-attributes="member: 18280"><p>Determining the requirements of the game world is a metagaming concept that is going to go on throughout the life of the game. However, the metagaming requirements of a sandbox include the chance for the PCs to die a gruesome random death, whereas the metagaming requirements for an adventure path require that the PCs are protected from said gruesome random death. </p><p></p><p>Yes, in the sandbox game, the players will take pains to eliminate that chance as much as possible, but it is always there. It is the chute that deposits you three levels deeper in the dungeon when you're already low on hit points. It is the earthquake that happens, and that may kill you despite your best efforts. It is the random chance for disease (see the 1e DMG) that strikes down the strongest, the failed saving throw that you needed to make, the dice running cold one night when you can't get over a 5 on your d20 to (literally) save your (PC's) life.</p><p></p><p>And, frankly, for those who like this style of game, <em><strong>this is what is desired</strong></em>.</p><p></p><p>Which is why you will seldom hear a sandbox DM talk about fudging die rolls....and you often hear of adventure path DMs talk about doing so.</p><p></p><p>"[T]he needs of the <em>game</em>" may "outweigh the needs of the <em>simulation</em>", but the needs of the two paradigms are different.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You miss (intentionally?) the point.</p><p></p><p>I cannot answer what the dragon is likely to do without first knowing why it is in a fit of pique. I don't need a list; I just need one good reason to answer the question intelligently.</p><p></p><p>And, yes, sometimes the intelligent answer <strong><em>is</em></strong> "raining fiery destruction upon a helpless band of low-level PC's". And, despite your protests to the contrary, the fact that this sometimes is the intelligent answer....and what happens....<em><strong>is good for the game</strong></em>.</p><p></p><p>It is also, obviously, possible to abuse this sort of thing. The game is never "DM vs. Players" because the DM would always win. And, I note, your use of the word "unavoidable" (which I cut) is, I think, they key thing you keep coming back to. Only if the DM has decided what will happen before the players' input is presented, and the dice are rolled, is anything "unavoidable".</p><p></p><p>"X is unavoidable" is adventure path, not sandbox.</p><p></p><p></p><p>RC</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Raven Crowking, post: 4705796, member: 18280"] Determining the requirements of the game world is a metagaming concept that is going to go on throughout the life of the game. However, the metagaming requirements of a sandbox include the chance for the PCs to die a gruesome random death, whereas the metagaming requirements for an adventure path require that the PCs are protected from said gruesome random death. Yes, in the sandbox game, the players will take pains to eliminate that chance as much as possible, but it is always there. It is the chute that deposits you three levels deeper in the dungeon when you're already low on hit points. It is the earthquake that happens, and that may kill you despite your best efforts. It is the random chance for disease (see the 1e DMG) that strikes down the strongest, the failed saving throw that you needed to make, the dice running cold one night when you can't get over a 5 on your d20 to (literally) save your (PC's) life. And, frankly, for those who like this style of game, [i][b]this is what is desired[/b][/i][b][/b]. Which is why you will seldom hear a sandbox DM talk about fudging die rolls....and you often hear of adventure path DMs talk about doing so. "[T]he needs of the [i]game[/i]" may "outweigh the needs of the [i]simulation[/i]", but the needs of the two paradigms are different. You miss (intentionally?) the point. I cannot answer what the dragon is likely to do without first knowing why it is in a fit of pique. I don't need a list; I just need one good reason to answer the question intelligently. And, yes, sometimes the intelligent answer [B][I]is[/I][/B] "raining fiery destruction upon a helpless band of low-level PC's". And, despite your protests to the contrary, the fact that this sometimes is the intelligent answer....and what happens....[I][B]is good for the game[/B][/I]. It is also, obviously, possible to abuse this sort of thing. The game is never "DM vs. Players" because the DM would always win. And, I note, your use of the word "unavoidable" (which I cut) is, I think, they key thing you keep coming back to. Only if the DM has decided what will happen before the players' input is presented, and the dice are rolled, is anything "unavoidable". "X is unavoidable" is adventure path, not sandbox. RC [/QUOTE]
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