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<blockquote data-quote="jim pinto" data-source="post: 4710853" data-attributes="member: 17619">I am still reading the entirety of this thread, so I'm not sure if this was said yet……but scavenging the dead for treasure, isn't very heroic to begin with. Handing a GM a registry of items he can pick up for the &quot;treasure shower&quot; fits right in with the mercenary manner of this gaming trope. 1st Edition wasn't about Heroism, so the fact that some of these metagaming conventions survived through the iterations is indicative of so many other problems with the game that your original post can't really be about D&amp;D anymore. It can be about a host of smaller press games or some home-brew heartbreaker that allows players to build the exact archtype they want. But D&amp;D is about growing into your pants, not buying the right pair of pants in the first place.3.x and 4E are cannibalized retinue, left-over from designers who did not approach the gestalt of the product, but rather fine-tuned the game design to the way people would &quot;probably&quot; play it. In essence, making D&amp;D the former of your arguments… the game is there for the players and as such should respond to their id and not their intellect. That wasn't a slam. Gaming is about fun for the majority of people doing it. It is not a noble exploration of morays and/or counter-culture storytelling methods. It's perhaps (another reason) why people flee the gaming table and join MMOs.Jack7, your original post is excellently-written and well thought out. I think it's a disservice to your theoretic argument and anathema to the concept of game forums that people would take offense to your obvious extreme and academic approach to game theory. Obviously a new (and/or extreme) opinion is going to invite controversy. But I don't recall you writing anywhere that Gamer65109 is a jerk and is playing wrong. If people are happy scavenging the dead for +1 swords, let them. I'm just sorry that in 35 years we haven't invented a new way to give treasure and/or XP to PCs other than killing and looting.Again. That's for the post. Extremely enjoyable read.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="jim pinto, post: 4710853, member: 17619"] I am still reading the entirety of this thread, so I'm not sure if this was said yet… …but scavenging the dead for treasure, isn't very heroic to begin with. Handing a GM a registry of items he can pick up for the "treasure shower" fits right in with the mercenary manner of this gaming trope. 1st Edition wasn't about Heroism, so the fact that some of these metagaming conventions survived through the iterations is indicative of so many other problems with the game that your original post can't really be about D&D anymore. It can be about a host of smaller press games or some home-brew [I]heartbreaker[/I] that allows players to build the exact archtype they want. But D&D is about growing into your pants, not buying the right pair of pants in the first place. 3.x and 4E are cannibalized retinue, left-over from designers who did not approach the gestalt of the product, but rather fine-tuned the game design to the way people would "probably" play it. In essence, making D&D the former of your arguments… the game is there for the players and as such should respond to their id and not their intellect. That wasn't a slam. Gaming is about fun for the majority of people doing it. It is not a noble exploration of morays and/or counter-culture storytelling methods. It's perhaps (another reason) why people flee the gaming table and join MMOs. Jack7, your original post is excellently-written and well thought out. I think it's a disservice to your theoretic argument and anathema to the concept of game forums that people would take offense to your obvious extreme and academic approach to game theory. Obviously a new (and/or extreme) opinion is going to invite controversy. But I don't recall you writing anywhere that Gamer65109 is a jerk and is playing wrong. If people are happy scavenging the dead for +1 swords, let them. I'm just sorry that in 35 years we haven't invented a new way to give treasure and/or XP to PCs other than killing and looting. Again. That's for the post. Extremely enjoyable read. [/QUOTE]

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