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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Jack7" data-source="post: 4712134" data-attributes="member: 54707">Ghost in the MachineOur revels now are ended. These our actors, As I foretold you, were all spirits, and Are melted into air, into thin air: And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, The cloud-capp'd towers, the gorgeous palaces, The solemn temples, the great globe itself, Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff As dreams are made on; and our little life Is rounded with a sleep. Jim, I thought the article on Gygaxian Naturalism was very well considered. I also liked the complimentary/competing article on The Dungeon as Mythic Underworld.Personally in my milieu or setting there are two worlds: our "Real World" historically set in Constantinople circa 800 AD, and another world that is the home of Elves and Dwarves, etc, though they do not call themselves that.Our real world is a physical world of pragmatic physics and sconce and technology (for the time period explored), and the other world is a more supernatural/mythic world populated by other creatures, like Elves, Giants, Monsters, and so forth though that world is geographically identical to ours.Creatures and monsters from that "Other World" visit our world from time to time to "adventure" and men from our world visit the other world from time to time to "adventure." And these are always interesting scenarios and missions.But I have found that when these two different worlds overlap (the world of men, and the world of non-men) then that is when the bets adventures really occur. When these two different worlds overlap they create a Third World, a sort of Underground World, or Over-World, or you might even say a Hyper-World, depending on how you want to classify and define it.When that happens very interesting things take place because in that world the rules of how things operate are constantly "in-flux," that is, the Underworld does not have to operate exactly like the Real World, our world, nor does it have to operate exactly like the Other World. In the Underworld psychical laws and supernatural paradigms and even psychological and perceptual viewpoints don't have to necessarily act like they would in either of the other two worlds. And this creates very interesting "adventures" because in the Underworld both of the other worlds are endangered, and because outcomes are not always easy to predict as to what effect they will have on anyone.But regardless of what world the players are adventuring in, it seems to me that each world in an RPG has to have its own "Reality." And the reason is simple to see. A character could never become anything more than a hollow "Sheet," a sort of blank cipher if his world lacks all reality. Anymore than a real man can become anything "real" if his environment lacks "reality." For instance imagine that the world was merely what you wanted it to be. That you could arise any given morning, or every morning, or you could even create when morning was or was not, and reshape the world into any form you wished? What then at the end of the day is the value of our work? Your family? Your nation? Your community? Your accomplishments? Your world? If the world is about accomplishments then you need a stable base of operations in which to act, one in which you can rely upon the reality of outcomes. If RPGs are about role play then one has to be able to role play, and how can one role play if the world is insubstantial? Such a world is like an Earth made of Vapors. There is nothing solid, substantial, or lasting to push against. There is no atmosphere, no terra firma, nothing of real reliability, no force of gravity against which to push to leave a mark. It really is a video game world, as they currently exist. Cut it off and the whole world falls to zero once again. You can program it to be anything you want it to be at any point. (Though even modern video and computer games have at least learned this very vital lesson, a "Save Function" makes for a much, much more interesting game than one in which you really have to restart from the beginning every time you play. That adds significantly to the "realism" of the video game world. Why then if video games understand the sales-value of more realism would RPGs want to seek the dubious value of less realism in this sense?) You can be a doctor one second, a policeman the next, but nothing lasts beyond the immediate desire. You can have a Holy Avenger one second, then "sell that off" because your desire flags and get a really cool nuclear fusion gun the next. In a world dominated by pure gamism nothing has any lasting value, certainly not heroism. How can characters have any gravitas if the world has no gravity? On the front of the Player's Handbook it says plainly Arcane, Divine, and Martial Heroes. That is the point of most heroic fantasy games, "Heroism." But if heroism has a history and a consistency that lasts only until the next "reboot," until the next re-programming, then it has absolutely no reality, not even an imaginary one. Heroism must have consistency, it must have  a history, it must have a world and a reality to "push against," it must have a "Center of Gravity." This is indeed the very reason for the development of Milieus and Worlds in the first place. If there were no need of realities beyond the character then the player could simply invent any world he desired for each different game he played. He'd have the excitement of the fight he scripted in any environment he choose, but does that create heroic characters? Or just cartoon ones?Without a world with its own reality all you have is a collection of Powers, not a Character. Without struggle and lasting accomplishment all you have are video game personas with no reality outside the time the power button turns on, and the time it turns off again. In fiction a character without a real and viable world in which to play his part is no more real or substantial than a man would be in our world if it dissolved every day and then reformed as something else every night. You'd have no development in the man because you'd have no environment in which to develop. All developments in such a world would be of short momentary value at best. Nothing could really move him because he world be aware that nothing is "substantial," everything is shadow. How long could a man really invest himself in such a world without absolute boredom being the inevitable result, and to what end would his investment pay any dividend other than immediate diversion?And in such a game all you have is a gamey-game, where nothing exists except for the sake of play, but even the play has no value beyond the moment of play. So how could a Character possibly develop? He could gain bonuses, but not a true nature. He could gain levels, but he could gain little else worth mentioning. Certainly not even an imaginary approximation of heroism. For nothing lasts. Not even his own achievements.You can't have a hero who is made of nothing, with no consistency, and you can't have a hero operating in a world of no substance that lacks all history. Even imaginary heroes need to be made of "firmer stuff" than that.</blockquote>

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