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Message: <blockquote data-quote="firesnakearies" data-source="post: 4398072" data-attributes="member: 71334">Forget about D&D, here's the issue that *I'm* peeved about:  Why the heck don't we have any crafting rules in Warhammer 40k? Why does Games Workshop just assume that its players just want the game to be about nothing but building armies and moving miniatures around on the table, and fighting strategic battles? It's pretty limiting, and I for one find it unacceptable. For that matter, why the heck don't we have a robust mercantile and profession system in Axis and Allies, already? You know, not every player just wants to fight World War II and deploy tanks to crush the other side. Some people want to actually build the tanks, or maybe be the guy who paints the government symbols on the side, or sew uniforms! I don't know why the executives at Milton Bradley didn't think outside the box a little bit and make the game fun for all types of players. It's pretty limiting, and I for one find it unacceptable. For that matter, why the heck don't we have a detailed crafting system in Chess, for crying out loud? Why is everyone all focused on just getting checkmate all the time? What about the other potential aspects of the game that are being neglected? Knights and bishops are all well and good, but why can't we have a couple of yeoman pieces, y'know? It's pretty limiting, and I for one find it unacceptable. And for that matter, why the heck don't we have some tradeskills in Hockey? Apparently the NHL thinks that every centre and winger out there is just interested in hat tricks and power plays and checking guys. Have they considered that some people might just want to make the best damn pucks out there, and take pride in that? Sadly, they haven't. It's pretty limiting, and I for one find it unacceptable.  Those examples make sense, and are legitimate issues to complain about. But D&D? Nah.  Dungeons and Dragons has always been about fantasy characters having epic adventures and battling evil monsters, exploring exotic locales, and discovering fabulous treasures. It's always been about larger-than-life true fantasy heroes, about their grand story, in the thrilling, dramatic style of the cinema or literature of the genre. The rules exist to govern the adventure, to make the resolution of the heroes' life-or-death, perilous and precarious struggles something other than purely and unsatisfyingly arbitrary. Everything else is roleplaying, and doesn't need a ruleset. I'm a huge proponent of roleplay, of character development, of in-game relationships and consequences, of world lore and serious storytelling. I don't want to play D&D as just a more complex version of D&D Miniatures, either. But we don't need Wizards of the Coast devoting a lot of time and book space to overly complicated, under-used, minimally demanded rules for non-adventure-related activities. Those things should be a part of a well-run campaign, maybe even a major part, but they don't need to be regulated by a concrete system in the way that action-oriented scenes do. It's all roleplay. Absolutely let your PCs declare whatever trades are appropriate to their background, and absolutely let them use those skills on occasion, when the heroes have some rare and much-needed downtime in between grueling stabs at saving the world. But you don't need dice rolls for it, or lists of requirements and ingredients, or costs and payoffs. It's for the story, and if it stays there, it's a beautiful thing. But keep it separate from the number-based adventure gameplay. Don't charge the PCs to make things that their character has a reason to make, but don't give them any real (adventure-affecting) profit either.  When you run a game which is inclusive of PC trades, without such things being inside the numerical rule system, you can encourage your players to say things like this:  "My character grew up as a jeweller's apprentice, so while we spend the next few months in town, I want to make a special, intricate brooch with the symbol of her noble house for Lady Dawnstar, to offer her as a gift, to show our great appreciation for her efforts on our behalf with the Rising Eagle tribe." "Since I've been training with Durgan Grimsteel for the last year, and he declared me a true journeyman of the trade, I want to smith up a bunch of new, quality-made swords for the neighboring village's poorly-armed militia and give them to Sheriff Updike to distribute to his men, so that when we're gone, they can defend themselves better against the orcs should they decide to attack again." "I want to apply my skills as an artist that I honed in the Shining Court of the Feywild as a girl to design and fashion an emblem for our adventuring company, something that will be evocative and meaningful, to emblazon on our banner and tabards." "Since there's such a paucity of food amongst the refugees, I'd like to go out into the surrounding wildlands every day and use my skills as a tracker and hunter to bring back whatever game I can, and give it to Mother Geneve so that she can feed those most in need. Also, I'm going to take that boy Tomas who is so interested in me along sometimes, and start teaching him how to catch food himself."  My response as a DM is not going to be, "Okay, that's going to cost you 800 gold, and take 2d6 weeks, and I need you to roll some checks for me..." It's going to be, "Okay, no problem. Here's what happens..." (Insert cool roleplaying scenes.) Storyline crafting, no rolls, no rules, no concrete effect on the party's actual wealth, no unbalancing the system. BUT, it can have all kinds of effect on in-character and in-world things. Relations with NPCs, the plot and events of the campaign, how the characters develop and what kind of reputation they have in the world, and the feeling of immersive coolness they get from knowing that the gorgeous mastercrafted warhammer Bob's character wields was lovingly forged by Jane's character.  But stuff like this is a no-go:  "I want to craft a ton of longbows, since I'm like, a boywer or whatever, and then sell them all to the rich merchants here. So, how much do I make?" "You said I was highly trained by druids in herbalism, right? Cool, I wanna go out and gather ALL the herbs around here and make up a bunch of healing poultices and poisons and stuff. Okay?"  That's the sort of thing that people are worried about players doing, to insane and game-breaking degrees, if you have freeform crafting without rules or regulations. But if you just keep all non-adventure-related activities strictly in the realm of storyline and roleplaying, and don't allow them to interfere with the careful game balance of PC wealth and item progression, then you don't have to worry about it at all. I refuse to believe that very many players really find it fun to have to roll a bunch of dice and consult a bunch of charts in order to practice their character's non-combat professions in whatever way befits their in-character motivations. I think that roleplaying it out, without imposing some "system" on the process, would be preferable to most people.  Let them do the cool in-character crafting stuff, make it a compelling springboard for deep roleplaying and plot enhancement. But don't smother the experience in a spreadsheet, and don't let them exploit the profession idea in order to get a bunch of "stuff" for their characters that they didn't earn in the way the game intends them to, which is adventuring.  This is just my perspective on the issue, and I know that many will disagree. But I hope that this little bit of advice is helpful to some of you who haven't really come to grips with this aspect of D&D gaming yet. Sorry for the length!</blockquote>

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