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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 6350710" data-attributes="member: 22779">Just a point of order - In AD&amp;D, the DC to pick a lock was entirely based on your character level.&nbsp; Are you now claiming that AD&amp;D embraces &quot;anti-sim&quot; elements?My problem is, you're claiming that D&amp;D &quot;earnestly pursues simulation&quot;, at least I think you're claiming that.&nbsp; Is that correct?&nbsp; Where?&nbsp; Where is D&amp;D earnestly pursuing simulation of anything?&nbsp; That's the point I'm trying to discover here.&nbsp; D&amp;D, AFAIC, does not, and never has, earnestly pursued simulation.&nbsp; There might have been some simulationist veneer glued on here and there, but, of all of the things that people claim make D&amp;D D&amp;D, Vancian casting, levels, 6 stats, the combat system, none of it comes anywhere near trying to model anything.&nbsp; Where are these models that are trying to earnestly pursue simulation.Look, I totally agree that a Star Fleet Battles level is not what I want either.&nbsp; Snore fest.&nbsp; Totally agree.&nbsp; But, the models have to simulate something don't they?&nbsp; They have to be able to tell us something about the game world.&nbsp; But, all the combat system tells us is when something is alive or dead.&nbsp; And even that's iffy.&nbsp; All the level system tells us is that if I kill enough orcs, I learn how to speak Elven.&nbsp; Bwuh?&nbsp; Even the six stats don't really tell us much.&nbsp; What does a 14 Int mean?&nbsp; What does a 9 Cha mean?&nbsp; Sure, I can peg interpretations to stuff, but, most of it is artificial fabrications with virtually no connection to the actual model.&nbsp; My fighter has taken 14 damage.&nbsp; What does he look like?&nbsp; Well, he looks like anything I want him to look like since the system doesn't give a single indication of what he actually looks like.&nbsp; Can my 10 Int character come up with detailed, intricate plans?&nbsp; Why or why not?&nbsp; On and on.&nbsp; The models don't tell us anything.&nbsp; They aren't really modelling anything.&nbsp; The mechanics are not there to model anything because they can't.&nbsp; The mechanics can't answer any questions, because they are not really earnestly pursuing simulation.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 6350710, member: 22779"] Just a point of order - In AD&D, the DC to pick a lock was entirely based on your character level. Are you now claiming that AD&D embraces "anti-sim" elements? My problem is, you're claiming that D&D "earnestly pursues simulation", at least I think you're claiming that. Is that correct? Where? Where is D&D earnestly pursuing simulation of anything? That's the point I'm trying to discover here. D&D, AFAIC, does not, and never has, earnestly pursued simulation. There might have been some simulationist veneer glued on here and there, but, of all of the things that people claim make D&D D&D, Vancian casting, levels, 6 stats, the combat system, none of it comes anywhere near trying to model anything. Where are these models that are trying to earnestly pursue simulation. Look, I totally agree that a Star Fleet Battles level is not what I want either. Snore fest. Totally agree. But, the models have to simulate [i]something[/i] don't they? They have to be able to tell us something about the game world. But, all the combat system tells us is when something is alive or dead. And even that's iffy. All the level system tells us is that if I kill enough orcs, I learn how to speak Elven. Bwuh? Even the six stats don't really tell us much. What does a 14 Int mean? What does a 9 Cha mean? Sure, I can peg interpretations to stuff, but, most of it is artificial fabrications with virtually no connection to the actual model. My fighter has taken 14 damage. What does he look like? Well, he looks like anything I want him to look like since the system doesn't give a single indication of what he actually looks like. Can my 10 Int character come up with detailed, intricate plans? Why or why not? On and on. The models don't tell us anything. They aren't really modelling anything. The mechanics are not there to model anything because they can't. The mechanics can't answer any questions, because they are not really earnestly pursuing simulation. [/QUOTE]

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