Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="BryonD" data-source="post: 6350965" data-attributes="member: 957">I don't recall that.  Are you referencing the "lockpicking %" ability of thieves?  Because that is completely different.The point I've made with "anti-sim" is blatantly rejecting any attempt at simulation.  The Thief table does not do that.  If a 2nd level thief and a 14th level thief approach the same lock, the higher level thief will have a better chance because his skill is better, there is nothing in the system to suggest that the lock itself became easier to open.  1E *does* assume that all locks are the same.  And I'd put that under a poor showing at sim, but it is still a date, nowhere near as sweet as a strawberry, but still a fruit, unlike Coke.  If there were different difficulties of locks and it was built into the system that the same lock was harder depending on how high the thief level, then THAT would be a soft drink, and yes, I'd call it "anti-sim".    If I've missed or forgotten something in 1E, please direct me to it.Where does it not?  I mean, vancian casting attempts to simulate a world with magic in which spellcasting works by those basic rules.  What more do you want?  A STR of 18 is stronger than a STR of 12.  You seem to be arguing that because it does not meet some unstated standard of being a statistically provable accurate sim that it is no more sim than things that openly abandon sim.  If Joe is the local arm wrestling champion and he has a STR of 16 in my 1E game, his STR is known and can be compared to the STR of anyone else.  If Mike (STR 11)and Sue (STR 17) challenge him, I know how they compare. Does that make it a great sim?  No.  Does it make it anything less than an attempt at sim?  Of course not.  Now, if I’m playing some other game and the rules expect me took look at Mike’s level and find the DC for beating Joe on a page in a book and then look at Sue’s level and find a very possibly DIFFERENT number for beating Joe on that same page, then Joe no longer has a meaningful value within the world.  In this game it just became “anti-sim”.  I didn’t say I didn’t like it.  I said the standard was absurd for RPGs.An Int of 14 means I’m near the top of intelligence in a scale based on 3 – 18.  The char is clearly smarter than average but not as smart as can be expected at the top of the normal range.First, I’ll state that repeatedly claiming these are not earnest efforts to pursue simulation is just obtuse denial.  Degree of success, and the ability of a group of players working together in the spirit of a good experience has shown that it does work for decades.  Again, you are using a pointless standard that completely attempts to sidestep the key issue.  You have shown me over and over that dates are less sweet than fruit, but you have done nothing to show me that they are not fruit or that Coke is a fruit.Prior to 4E I would largely agree with the spirit of the points you are making.  I would ENJOY debating the merits of improving the tangible meaning.  I would have never acknowledged that they were not “sim”, but I’d agree that you could call them “very poor” sim in a lot of cases.  Keep in mind that I left 2E with no desire to go back for pretty much this reason.  But 4E has changed the context of the conversation.  Saying that 14 INT is not meaningful is a completely different matter to saying that a DC14 lock turns out to be DC 21 because a different character tried to open it.  Saying  40 hp damage to a fighter does not have a fixed meaning is different than saying that a fighter can be beat unconscious by Ogres and have absolutely no after effect the next morning, with no outside mechanism for recovery.  I don’t care how many times you tell me you don’t think pre-4E versions of D&D were bad at sim.  You are completely entitled to your opinion on that.  But over and over 4E abandons sim altogether.  It has been PRAISED for this.  So there is no point in arguing where 1E falls on the scale if the question at hand is whether or not a game should be on the scale in the first place.</blockquote>

Verification